Originally posted by Vulcan
seagoon I understand that sodom and gomora were clear of innocents. However, you cannot tell me that the great flood did not kill a single innocent. I also would like point out what kind of god turns a poor woman to a pile of salt because she "looked bad", its a bit over the top.
Howdy again Vulcan,
Obviously I wasn't clear enough on this point in the last post, my bad. So here it is very spelled out as simply as I can: Following the fall, there are
no innocents not a one. The number of mortal men the bible speaks of as born innocent with no need of salvation from sin is a null set. Again and again, the bible speaks of the
universality of sin:
Is. 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Romans 3:10 "10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one"
Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Gen. 8:21 "And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
This includes even Abraham, Lot's Uncle, who was saved not by being good, or doing good works but by faith in God's promises, including the promised Redeemer:
Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness."
NKJ Romans 4:1-5 "What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,"
John 8:56-58 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
So, God's judgment in each of the cases you cite was not a crime perpetrated on an innocent, or an arbitrary act of malevolence, it was the just judgement of a holy God on people "already condemned" to quote Christ in John 3:18.
That universality of sin is why, Jesus can state unequivocally in John 3:3 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." and then in John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
If I can let me humbly suggest that the problems you are having are less with Christians per se than with the Anthropology and Soteriology taught in the bible. It sounds like you are stuck in the same mode I was for awhile:
"No, this cannot be right, I cannot, and I will not believe it" Let me leave you with a quote on the subject of the universality of sin written over a century ago by J.C. Ryle, Bishop of Liverpool:
"I admit fully that man has many grand and noble faculties left about him, and that in arts and sciences and literature he shows immense capacity. But the fact still remains that in spiritual things he is utterly “dead” and has no natural knowledge, or love, or fear of God. His best things are so interwoven and intermingled with corruption, that the contrast only brings out into sharper relief the truth and extent of the Fall. That one and the same creature should be in some things so high and in others so low; so great and yet so little; so noble and yet so mean; so grand in his conception and execution of material things and yet so groveling and debased in his affections; that he should be able to plan and erect buildings like those at Carnac and Luxor in Egypt and the Parthenon at Athens, and yet worship vile gods and goddesses and birds and beasts and creeping things; that he should be able to produce tragedies like those of Aeschylus and Sophocles, and histories like that of Thucydides, and yet be a slave to abominable vices like those described in the first chapter of the Epistle to the Romans—all this is a sore puzzle to those who sneer at “God’s Word written” and scoff at us as bibliolaters. But it is a knot that we can untie with the Bible in our hands. We can acknowledge that man has all the marks of a majestic temple about him, a temple in which God once dwelt, but a temple which is now in utter ruins, a temple in which a shattered window here, and a doorway there, and a column there, still give some faint idea of the magnificence of the original design, but a temple which from end to end has lost its glory and fallen from its high estate. And we say that nothing solves the complicated problem of man’s condition but the doctrine of original or birth–sin and the crushing effects of the Fall."BTW - I am happy to go on as long as you wish, a lot of people have been very patient with me throughout my life even though I didn't merit it, and God is still exceedingly patient with this particular sinner.
- SEAGOON
