Russian classrooms reverting to soviet version of history

[Vad]

Originally posted by Hangtime
everything is more complicated in Russia... particularly ideas, concepts and in particular 'politics'.

I used to smile every time a russian mentioned 'Pravda'. It translates as 'truth'.. in the west that's a pretty simple concept. But in russia it's a whole lot more complicated than that.

Yes, you are right, everything is very complicated in Russia. I used to smile every time when west people mention word "truth", especially when they use that word in conjuction with the word " simple".
Enron and Ukos. Sponsorship scandal and bribes in Russian goverment. Forge Iraq WMD and Chechnya. Vietnam and Afganistan. Etc, etc, ect.

Truth wasn't , isn't and will never be simple. Read Jaroslav Gashek, one of the best Czech writer. In one of his novels he wrote one interesting idea - the God will not judge you when you will die. Peter or Pavel will do that but not the God. Because the God knows everything, all you life, all your thoughts,  all your fillings. If somebody knows all truth he can't judge.

You try to judge - it means, you don't know the truth!

[Hangtime]

Yah see, yah fall into your own convienient trap..

Answering with Truth is simple. It's 'yes' or 'no'.

Stalin murdered thousands of his officer corps. Yes or No?

Stalin caused the death of Millions of Ukranians. Yes or No?

Stalin imprisoned or executed thousands of Acadmeians. Yes or No?

Stalin was responsible for the murders in Katryn Forrest? Yes or No?

You see, truth IS simple. It's only when you attempt to cloak it in cause and effect reasoning.. 'apologist' excuses; that 'truth' becomes 'complicated'.

Lets try it from OUR perspective.

The American Government implemented a policy of Genocide against American Indians for over 100 years.  

True.

The American Government routinely used assination and other illegal means to install and support murdering dictators 'friendly' to US intrests for the last 100 years.

True.

The American Government cannot be trusted to honor treaty obligations based on past performance.

True.

See.. 'Truth'. It ain't hard.. Russia's citizens should give it a shot.

[Vad]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Yah see, yah fall into your own convienient trap..

Answering with Truth is simple. It's 'yes' or 'no'.

Stalin murdered thousands of his officer corps. Yes or No?

Yes. And No.

Yes, Stalin executed thousands of high officers of Red Army. But most of them were charged for being part of Trotskiy-Zinoviev block.   Do you know who was Trotskiy? BTW, I can add that Trotskiy emigrated from USSR, and was murdered in Mexico by direct Stalin's order.

Trotskiy was Hero of Civil war in Russia.  It was he who actually won that war. He was the second person in country after Lenin. It was his idea about "export of revolution". He was responsible for attack on Poland. Even now Red brigades in Europe are staying on Trotskiy's positions. Most of the officers in Red Army considered Trotskiy as their chief and God.

Stalin was very bad guy but he was pragmatic. He clearly understood that it is better to be czar in one country than to fight against the whole world for dream. He had to stop Trotskiy, and remove even shadows of his ideas from the brains of his officers. If he didn't do that Europe was faced the Red Army in 1925 - 1930.

Yes, it was a bloody crime. And a lot of families in Russia lost thier relatives at that times. But even Russains understand that another scenario could be much more worse -  total war against whole world for the victory of revolution.

I have to go to bed, but answer for all your other questions is the same: Yes. And no.

[Rino]

Originally posted by Boroda
I guess the others were slaughtered and eaten without salt by Jewish cossacks.

Or maybe simply sent home before that man.

 

I wonder why he was given to USSR by the "allies" if he's so innocent. US gave shelter to many nazi criminals, later employed by CIA, why didn't they simply save an innocent drafted man? I have heard enough such stories, sorry.

 

Tell this to the Jews and Slavs who were killed in gas-chambers by millions. Or to a man that I met in a hospital 2 months ago, who was 2 years old when he and his mother were taken to labour camp in Germany, where his mother had to work excavating peat from a swamp without almost any food or shelter. It's always so cruel when hangmen are turned into victims.

     Since you seemingly paint all germans as responsible for all
the crimes committed by a few, why shouldn't I hold all USSR
citizens to the same standard?

[Siaf__csf]

You know, the iron curtain wasn't such a bad thing in the end. I hope they bring that back now that things are reverting to 'normal' down there.

It's better that they stick to thier own territory if they can't accept the real world.

[Staga]

Western answer to simple question: Yes / No
Russian answer to simple question: Yes, but.../ No, but...

[Vad]

Originally posted by Staga
Western answer to simple question: Yes / No
Russian answer to simple question: Yes, but.../ No, but...

"The truth is rarely pure and never simple" (c) Oscar Wilde.

[Hangtime]

If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...

I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..

it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..

...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.

Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.

No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.

[Estel]

Originally posted by Vad
Ты производишь впечатление неглупого человека, но я не могу понять, зачем тебе это надо? Если ты смотрел (читал) Шварца " Убей Дракона", то ты должен помнить: " Нас всех так учили. Но не все стали первыми учениками!" Так вот они - все первые ученики. И их невозможно переубедить.

Да и не нужно, на мой взгляд.

А когда враг не сдается......

[Vad]

Originally posted by Hangtime
If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...

I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..

it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..

...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.

Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.

No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.

You can't be more wrong, and you are right

Russians don't trust and don't like their goverment more than any other nation in the world. And it has always been so. Funny thing: immediately after any election where more than 50% of popuation voted for new goverment polls show that 80% don't like this goverment and don't trust them! I don't understand myself how it could be! You have just elected this new goverment, you  voted for them, they didn't do anything wrong yet, just didn't have enough time, but you already don't like them. BTW, russians hated their goverment in 1917 so much that not only overthrew it but executed Czar, his family and several millions others. And put Russia in blood and dark for almost a century. The overthrowing and killing of our goverment is good Russian tradition and national hobby, actually.

But there is something else what I can't explain, and where you are right. Most of the Russians are very forgiving to their previous goverments. We instinctively identify achievements of the nation with ruling person. It's quite natural for Russian to say "Stalin won the war, Peter The Great built St Petersburg, Gorbachev freed East Europe". And we used to try to blanch over, find an excuse even for our  tyrants.
Don't ask me why, I don't know. Tradition...

[Siaf__csf]

..and contradiction it seems.

Gorbachev freed East Europe

How can he 'free' something that according to Boroda joined SU freewillingly and legal?

[Vad]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
..and contradiction it seems.

 

How can he 'free' something that according to Boroda joined SU freewillingly and legal?

I am talking about Hungary, Poland, East Germany, etc.

Soviet republics got independent thanks to Yeltsin.

[Staga]

Hangtime I happen to know several Russians from years back and they are very reasonable and intelligent people.
I just wish some of those would give another view to Russians in this board; seeing Boroda as a presentative of common Russian is like showing a pic of Michael Jackson and saying it...err.. he's an ordinary American.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, had Unca Joe been a bit less of a parnoid mass murderer and retained his officer corps instead of havin the NKVD plug 'em in the back of the head, he'd a had an army to oppose hitler with in 1940...

Hang, it's hard to judge now. Some (I say - at least some) of the "purged" commanders (there was no such thing as "officer corps" in USSR before 1943) were absolutely incompetent Civil war partisan leaders. For example: marshall Bluher, cavalier of the Red Banner Order #1, was executed after during a border conflict with Japan, when he was a supreme commander in Far East, and was deadly drunk during the hostilities.

Marshall Budenniy f-ed up the defence of Leningrad in 1941 and became a commander of partisan forces... He's one of the same generation, brilliant Cossack warrant-officer in WWI (five [!!!] St. George's crosses!), not "purged"...

Originally posted by Hangtime
If he had not shot most of his civil administrators and academians, possibly his troops would have had rifles instead of shovels and rakes prior to the war.

In 1941 Soviet Army had a semi-auto rifle in million quantities, that was easier to produce then 1891/30 bolt-action, it had largest tank forces and aviation...

Problems with weapons were solved by 1942.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Kruschev was right. The guy was an evil bastard.

Mikita was an illiterate peasant. His "persnality cult" report at XX Party congress was only a matter of fighting for power.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Vad
I am talking about Hungary, Poland, East Germany, etc.

Soviet republics got independent thanks to Yeltsin.

Wrong. Your PEOPLE freed THEMSELVES. Yeltsin could holler in boozonics till yer cows came home, wouldn't have 'freed' your republics.

Wake up, smell the borscht. Your countrymen are responsible for your nations freedom. Yes, a 'leader' can galvanize a people, give them a rally point.. but without the support of the PEOPLE, your nation could not have come to pass.

To look upon your leaders as gods, saints or above the law is the fist step toward giving up your rights and duties as a PEOPLE and giving them to the 'dear leader'. To 'honor' a murderer for 'salvation of your nation' is folly.. and encourages a repetition.