Russian classrooms reverting to soviet version of history

[Boroda]

Originally posted by spitfiremkv
maybe by shooting anyone who doesn't share the views of your authorities?

Well, attitude to history is one of the few things where I support our "beloved party and government". But, as usual, it's only words, they do nothing, and our central television keeps making idiotic series about "noble criminals saving Mother Russia when evil NKVD tries to put them back to jail".

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Vad
I didn't want to offend anybody but it is not too easy to translate it in English. I will try but I believe you will not understand anyway.


[translation]
Boroda, you don't show an impression of foolish person but I can't understand why do you do that? If you saw (read) Shvarc's (russian writer) "Kill the dragon" you have to remeber the phrase: " We are all were learnt that way but not all of us became the A-grade students". They are all A-grade students, and you can't overpersuade them.

And you don't have to do that, I think.
[/translation]

I didn't read that play, and didn't even see the film

I try to show people here a different point of view, and some of them really start to think. Persuading anyone on the Internet is next to impossible, but the thinking process can be stimulated.

I also have fun and practice my English.

You are my opponent on Russian WB forum, and I want to again disagree with your "relax and enjoy" position: I don't want to follow the "mainstream" in propaganda if this propaganda means mixing my nation's history with excrements.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
everything is more complicated in Russia... particularly ideas, concepts and in particular 'politics'.

I used to smile every time a russian mentioned 'Pravda'. It translates as 'truth'.. in the west that's a pretty simple concept. But in russia it's a whole lot more complicated than that.

Hang, we already discussed Heinlein's "Pravda means 'Truth'", it's a very funny reading, showing a xenophoby, paranoia and misunderstanding of a very intelligent man and a great writer.

BTW, Vad, I strongly recommend Heinlein's articles about his visit to USSR, you can fing them at Moshkov's library. They are absolutely brilliant!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Yah see, yah fall into your own convienient trap..

Answering with Truth is simple. It's 'yes' or 'no'.

Stalin murdered thousands of his officer corps. Yes or No?

No. There were no "officer corps", "thousands murdered" may be an exaggeration (and may be not).

Originally posted by Hangtime
Stalin caused the death of Millions of Ukranians. Yes or No?

No. It was "routine" mass starvation, I am 100% sure he did his best to avoid it, but even Bolsheviks can't change the weather.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Stalin imprisoned or executed thousands of Acadmeians. Yes or No?

No. I can remember only a few examples, only one name comes into my mind - Vavilov.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Stalin was responsible for the murders in Katryn Forrest? Yes or No?

AAA hold me seven people!!!!

I DON"T F@#$ING KNOW!!!

Originally posted by Hangtime
You see, truth IS simple. It's only when you attempt to cloak it in cause and effect reasoning.. 'apologist' excuses; that 'truth' becomes 'complicated'.

Truth is never simple. It's simple only in silly propaganda. Sorry. Propaganda is an art of hiding the truth by simplification.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Lets try it from OUR perspective.

The American Government implemented a policy of Genocide against American Indians for over 100 years.  

True.

The American Government routinely used assination and other illegal means to install and support murdering dictators 'friendly' to US intrests for the last 100 years.

True.

The American Government cannot be trusted to honor treaty obligations based on past performance.

True.

See.. 'Truth'. It ain't hard.. Russia's citizens should give it a shot.

Hang, my point is that it's impossible to teach history at schools using only the examples you gave above.

I can give you some examples from nearest past that IMHO must be mentioned in history schoolbooks, like the fact that Russian government is responsible for genocide in Chechnya and rise of Chechen terrorism...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...

I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..

it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..

...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.

Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.

No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.

Hang, you completely misunderstand us.

Western version of our history (constant murder, crime and Russians as a nation of hopeless idiots) became an official point of view since maybe 1987. In fact - people like me are modern "dissidents".

Life in Russia is a constant battle with authorities. Our leaderships main goal since year 988 (I mean baptising of Kiev 1000 years ago)  is to make our life worse regardless to the expences. Our own government is our main enemy. "Id there is a person - then there is a reason to put him into jail" is their motto. For example, now I am going home, one hour in a subway, and I am going to buy a can of "screwdriver" (vodka/orange juice). It's a crime to drink in a subway, and I may be arrested, but I'll drink anyway. If I'll be arrested - you can call me a "prisoner of conscience"

[Vad]

Originally posted by Boroda
You are my opponent on Russian WB forum, and I want to again disagree with your "relax and enjoy" position:

Are you sure? What is WB? If you mean warbird I wrote my last post there year ago.

[Boroda]

Sorry I thought you are Vadim Maximenko from Vilnus...

Here is a link to a discussion I meant (in Russian).

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Boroda
Hang, you completely misunderstand us.

Western version of our history (constant murder, crime and Russians as a nation of hopeless idiots) became an official point of view since maybe 1987. In fact - people like me are modern "dissidents".

Life in Russia is a constant battle with authorities. Our leaderships main goal since year 988 (I mean baptising of Kiev 1000 years ago)  is to make our life worse regardless to the expences. Our own government is our main enemy. "Id there is a person - then there is a reason to put him into jail" is their motto. For example, now I am going home, one hour in a subway, and I am going to buy a can of "screwdriver" (vodka/orange juice). It's a crime to drink in a subway, and I may be arrested, but I'll drink anyway. If I'll be arrested - you can call me a "prisoner of conscience"

Perhaps we can continue to disagree.. without reason? My friend, 'apologist' reasoning for Stalin's pogroms and wholesale murder is assinine.. to put a butcher on a pedestal and rever him as the 'savior of the nation' runs enirely contrary to the statement you made above.

So, what was he? Butcher of his own people, or savior of his people? If you answer again with 'both', and choose to aknowledge only the acts that preserved communisim as your nations polity and disavow or excuse his acts of butchery then your DO have a problem with reality!

Cheers!

[Torque]

stalin made hitler look like a saint, one would have to suspended all rational to think otherwise.

he cried like a gurl when hitler invaded, nuff said.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Boroda We don't hide any unpleasant facts about Russian Empire or USSR too. Can you give me examples of genocide of millions of people preformed by Russian state? Sorry about "no genocide at all" statement. I forgot what Ivan IV did to Novgorod, but I bet you never heard about it. Anyway, European "civilized nations" did much worse things to Slavonic people at the very same time.

Boroda, Ivan Grozniy captured Novgorod by military force. Estimated number of Novgorod people KIA and executed is between five and fifteen thousand. No genocide here. Especially if you take into account that the survivors from Novgorod nobility were resettled on Moscovite lands.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Torque stalin made hitler look like a saint, one would have to suspended all rational to think otherwise. he cried like a gurl when hitler invaded, nuff said.

Torque, why do you believe that malicious propaganda about Stalin ? Just a month ago I read an article in American propaganda leaflet "AM New York" (a "FREE" daily) where a jerk of Polish descend Alex Storozynski wrote that (quote) ..."Stalin murdered more people than Hitler". And this jerk gives the exact number of these people. And the number given is 40 (forty !?) million. If you want to become a total zombi, keep on reading such crap. But do not try to spread the news.

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Hangtime Perhaps we can continue to disagree.. without reason? My friend, 'apologist' reasoning for Stalin's pogroms and wholesale murder is assinine.. to put a butcher on a pedestal and rever him as the 'savior of the nation' runs enirely contrary to the statement you made above. So, what was he? Butcher of his own people, or savior of his people? If you answer again with 'both', and choose to aknowledge only the acts that preserved communisim as your nations polity and disavow or excuse his acts of butchery then your DO have a problem with reality! Cheers!

Stalin was a great Emperor. He envisaged the deadly threat from the West (or, what is most likely, he just read Hitler's "Mein Kampf") and ordered the total elimination of any opposition to his regime. As the result of Stalins orders, several million people died (I can speak of the number from two to four million of those who perished during 1929-1953). So, as it appeares, he saved the Soviet people (that is more than one hundred ethnic groups) from the genocide, the official Nazi policy on the occupied "Eastern territories". Let's crank up the overall numbers (including WWII losses). Germany lost about 15 million people out of 70 million population during not full 13 years of Hitler's reign, and the USSR lost from 30 to 32 million out of 200 million population during 25 years of Stalin's reign. Even this methodologically wrongful count is "in the favour" of Comrade Stalin.

[Fishu]

lol

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Staga Western answer to simple question: Yes / No Russian answer to simple question: Yes, but.../ No, but...

Staga, your zombied Western "civilization" cracked its pot when it adopted idiotic total dualism. That's why you can always give a yes-or-no answer to any imaginable question. BTW, is the grey colour white ? (Yes\No) Or is the grey colour black ? (Yes\No)

[genozaur]

Originally posted by Hangtime If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary... I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government.. it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace.. ...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is. Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'. No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.

Hangtime, your post is a bad joke to any Russian. Because for the last hundred years the Russians have not trusted their government.