Author Topic: Spit remodel (Read 2842 times)

thrila · « **Reply #45 on:** June 05, 2005, 12:39:09 PM »

Krusty your statement about Spit V's flying with Spit IX's is a little misleading. It did depend where on the globe the spits were. For instance in the med it was common for the Spit V in use as a fighter-bomber and Spit IX to escort. 11 Group RAF however was mostly Spit IX's by feb '43. Spit IX squadrons were only shipped to Africa once the 190 arrived in order to counter the threat.

Spit V's were transferred to theatres of a lesser priority and to groups with less "action". The spit IX filled up the ETO first and then trickled down to other theatres at a smaller rate.

I wouldn't mind a Vb and a Vc. The Vb for ETO '41 and the Vc for '42+ (ie malta, sicily)

Kev367th · « **Reply #46 on:** June 05, 2005, 01:04:09 PM »

Another reason for the Mk VIII -
Its the historical opponent of the Zero in the Far East. All but 1 of the Far East Sqns were equipped with Mk VIII's.

All this no more Spits when there is a TA-152 (of which ONLY 67 actually reached service) in the game. There are 'rare' Spits with a production run longer than this.
Even the MkVII had 140, MKXII had 100, MKXVIII the last wartime Spit had 300....INSANITY.

The ones I am requesting -
Mk VIII - 1652 produced. For Far East scenarios etc
Mk XII - 100 produced. 1st Spit that could catch 190s
Mk XVI - 1054 produced. Nice to have a bubble canopy, clipped wing Spit.

None would require perking and thus give a nice range of free Spits from the BoB up to 1944. Something we don't have now.

Nothing you can say will convince me that an aircraft that flew throughout the war can be represented by 3 free and 1 perked model, considering the LW has 9 free and 3 perked to represent them.

Rough dates LW
109E4 1939
109F4 1941
109G2 1942
109G6 1942
190A5 1943
190A8 1943
190F8 1944
109G10 1944
190D9 1944

Rough dates RAF
Spit I 1939/40
Spit 5 1941
Spit 9 1942
Big gap free Spits 1943/44
Spit 14 1944 (perked)

And no-one sees anything wrong with this?

Now add what I'm asking
Spit 8 1943
Spit 12 1943
Spit 16 1944

Much more balanced.

Krusty · « **Reply #47 on:** June 05, 2005, 02:30:53 PM »

I did not count the Emil nor the Spit1, as those are not contenders. Aside from the novelty piece, you will not see them in most of your MA career I bet.

The 190F is a bomber, not a fighter. It is slow and lumbering. Thus not listed as a fighter.

If you want me to list how the planes stack up, I shall.

Emil -- spit1
190a5 109f4 & g2 -- SpitV (A-5 being an even match if you ask me, but the spitV we have can outfly the others)
190a-8 109g6 -- spitIX
190d9 109g10 -- spitXIV

As you can see the SpitV we currently have is so porked that it spans about 3 years of the war. It takes on planes from the F4 to the A5, and does it with ease.

Perhaps that is why I initially thought "we don't need any more spits!" because the SpitV was too porked. Well, if it were a 1941 spitV, that is to say were the FM fixed/changed/"de-ufo'ed", I agree that more versions would be good.

Please clarify, perhaps I am ignorant, but what is the different between griffon and merlin 266? I mean when you say "it's a merlin 266, not a griffon - it wouldn't be perked" what is the difference in performance? I don't understand, might be part of the confusion.

Kev367th · « **Reply #48 on:** June 05, 2005, 03:00:06 PM »

Griffon engine is the much more powerful replacement for the Merlin.

Spit XII Griffon IIB 393mph @ 18,000 (low level interceptor)
Spit XIV Griffon 65/66 - 448mph @ 26,000ft
Spit XVI Merlin 266 - 406mph @ 22,000ft

Notice the XIV with the later Griffon is a lot faster than the other two.
Although the XII is slightly misleading it was designed for lower alt fights.
Will try a Spit XIV offline at 18k see what it tops out at.

Charge · « **Reply #49 on:** June 05, 2005, 03:10:20 PM »

"by removing the wingtips of the Spitfire, an improvement in lateral control could be achieved"

What kind of lateral control problem does a normal wing have?

-C+

Karnak · « **Reply #50 on:** June 05, 2005, 03:32:11 PM »

I'll throw out my prefered list:

Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitifire Mk Vb/Mk Vc (+12lbs boost)
Spitfire F.Mk IX (Merlin 61, universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk VIII (Merlin 66, full span universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk IX/LF.Mk XVI (Merlin 66/Merlin 266, razorback, clipped wings, "e" wing)
Spitfire F.Mk XIV (perked lightly)

Seafire Mk III

Dump the +16lbs boost Spitifre LF.Mk V and Seafire Mk IIc.

I am still at a loss as to why the Spitfire Mk V was remodeled from +12lbs boost to +16lbs boost.

Kev367th · « **Reply #51 on:** June 05, 2005, 03:41:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
I'll throw out my prefered list:

Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitifire Mk Vb/Mk Vc (+12lbs boost)
Spitfire F.Mk IX (Merlin 61, universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk VIII (Merlin 66, full span universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk IX/LF.Mk XVI (Merlin 66/Merlin 266, razorback, clipped wings, "e" wing)
Spitfire F.Mk XIV (perked lightly)

Seafire Mk III

Dump the +16lbs boost Spitifre LF.Mk V and Seafire Mk IIc.

I am still at a loss as to why the Spitfire Mk V was remodeled from +12lbs boost to +16lbs boost.

Nice list, I'd go one further, dump the hanger queen Spit XIV and replace it with a free Spit XII.
Also I'd have the bubble top, clipped wing XVI, just for something different.

Karnak · « **Reply #52 on:** June 05, 2005, 04:50:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Nice list, I'd go one further, dump the hanger queen Spit XIV and replace it with a free Spit XII.
Also I'd have the bubble top, clipped wing XVI, just for something different.

I don't think those changes would be good for a few reasons.

The Spitfire Mk XIV was a far more common and representative Griffon Spit than the Mk XII, almost 10 times as many made.

The bubble canopy Spits only enter service in the final two months of the European war. That makes them non-representative of a fighter that will be used in 1943 scenarios.

And lastly, but most importantly, the Spitfire F.Mk XIVc is my favorite WWII fighter.

Kev367th · « **Reply #53 on:** June 05, 2005, 11:52:36 PM »

Problem with the XIV is it's hardly ever ever used. A free Spit XII would be used.
More Spit XII's seen service that TA-152's, yet it is in the game.
Was just looking for a early Griffon Spit that wouldn't need to be perked and would therefore actually see some use.

Bubble canopies - OK fair enough, but since when has representative had anything to do with the planeset?
Is our current F IX representative, no, because more LF IX were produced than ony other.
Would be nice to have a bubbly canopy XVI, it saw combat, would just be different.
Wouldn't be for 1943 scenarios, XVI wasn't introduced till 1944.

For 1942 scenarios V, F IX
For 1943 scenarios you would have the LF IX, VIII and XII
For 1944 all the above plus the XVI

As things stand for anything after 1942 you have to use a 1941 Spit V and a 1942 Spit IX.

I would set thing up so the LF IX and XVI had the 50/20 as an option, and the XII only had 303/20. That way you get a choice, faster plane or better guns.

Karnak · « **Reply #54 on:** June 06, 2005, 10:22:23 AM »

Why would a Spit XII see more use than a Spit XIV? The performance at low altitude is almost identical, IIRC, and the XIV has superior high alt performance.

Banking on any Spit after the Merlin 61 Spitfire F.Mk IX being free is a long shot in my opinion.

Kev367th · « **Reply #55 on:** June 06, 2005, 11:23:17 AM »

Think the Spit XII would be free because unlike the XIV

Performance is at lower alts.
Around 40mph slower.
More comparable to 190d9 or La7 and they're free.

Assuming it was free it would see a lot more usage then the XIV.

Karnak · « **Reply #56 on:** June 06, 2005, 12:06:04 PM »

It is a Spitfire that will do better than 350mph on the deck and is from later than 1942. It'd be perked almost certainly. The Bf109G-10 and Fw190D-9 do fine at altitude and they are not perked. That has nothing to do with why the Spit XIV is perked.

Kev367th · « **Reply #57 on:** June 06, 2005, 12:14:29 PM »

Lol Krusty just noticed in the skins forum you would like another 109, talk about hypocrasy!!!!

That would then be 6x109's!!!! AND 4x190's!!!!

And you begrudge a more balanced Spit planeset?

Even if I got the extra I was asking for that would make 6 Spit models v 10 (if you got yours) LW ones.

Just think LW fans don't want a mid/late FREE spit that could cause havoc with run-oh-nines and run-one-ninetys.
How would you feel if HT suddenly decided-
a) You could have 2 1944 planes from the current 3 109/190 choices, both perked, one ridiculously high.
b) You kept the 109E4
c) You had a choice of 1 from1941
d) You had a choice of 1 from 1942
i.e. a total of 5 (2 perked)
Not too happy I would guess.
Now you know how RAF drivers feel, thats our fighter selection.

Karnak - Definately starting to wonder why 1942/350mph (ish) is the magic figure for a perk, but ONLY for the RAF it seems.

You'd think that the all plane development stopped in 1942 until the Spit 14 in 1944 from the current setup.

mauser · « **Reply #58 on:** June 06, 2005, 12:30:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th

Just think LW fans don't want a mid/late FREE spit that could cause havoc with run-oh-nines and run-one-ninetys.

Not all LW fans... there are enough 190's to satisfy my intended uses. I don't think it matters to some of us whether AH2 gets a Spit LF IX, XII, unperked XIV or all of the above. Or even a Meteor MkIII.

mauser

Kev367th · « **Reply #59 on:** June 06, 2005, 12:35:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mauser
Not all LW fans... there are enough 190's to satisfy my intended uses. I don't think it matters to some of us whether AH2 gets a Spit LF IX, XII, unperked XIV or all of the above. Or even a Meteor MkIII.

mauser

You can understand my frustration though.

You'd think all Spit development stopped in 1942 until the advent of the 14 in 1944.

We had the -
VIII in 1943
XII in 1943
XVI in 1944
XVIII in 1945

Intermediates
X,XI,XIII were all PR versions so no place for them in AH2.

No idea about a XV, only XV's I know of were Seafires, same for XVII, can't find anything.

God only knows the perk value on a XVIII if it ever appeared, but it would be the current perk value of a XIV.