P47N Perk Debate

[DrDea]

True,but if you manage to get that opp your gonna shred anything flying.Nice guns,fleeting opps to get hits

[SFRT - Frenchy]

- Assuming the LW pilot knows what he is doing, FW A5 will outturn a D25, as a F4, G2, G6.
- The A8 is toasty.
- The G10/D9 won't but they can use the vertical or run away against a jug piloted by an average gunner. (a guy used to 50s  has a 700y "cone of death" ahead of the jug's nose).

When the jug  gets below 30% of total fuel load, whatcha ... otherwise, you ok Jerry.

[Wilbus]

About the 110 Urchin, it actually turns on a dime and in a close combat turnfight it easily beats 190's and quite easily P47 in my experience.

[Brooke]

Widewing and Wilbus, thanks for the offers.  I will try to meet Widewing this week.  If I can't find Widewing, I will look around for Wilbus.

I have also created a small utility for checking computer's various timers, just to make sure nothing whacky is going on.  You can get it here:

TimerChecker.exe download

Widewing, as our times on the turning test are so different, could you try it on your computer, timing 30 or 60 seconds vs. your stopwatch?  Your stopwatch should show the same time as the two computer timers to within about half a second.

Thanks, guys -- I'm looking forward to checking all of this out.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Brooke
Widewing, as our times on the turning test are so different, could you try it on your computer, timing 30 or 60 seconds vs. your stopwatch?  Your stopwatch should show the same time as the two computer timers to within about half a second.

Thanks, guys -- I'm looking forward to checking all of this out.

Stop watch: 30.07
TimeChecker: 30.01

Close enough for government work.  

My regards,

Widewing

[Brooke]

OK, I just got done with some testing with Wilbus, and here some more info on all of this.

First, Wilbus is a much better pilot than I am.  I just have to get that out of the way right up front!

Wilbus did the test, with me as observer, in a P-47D-25 (1 notch flaps, 50% fuel, normal max power, not wep, 500 ft. altitude, steady state max-rate turn).  He did 3 revolutions in 72 seconds.  I just did it offline, same test.  72 seconds.  This is the same as the data that I posted above, but it differs greatly from Widewing's results, so I still want to get together with Widewing, which I'll try to do this week.

We then took two planes, Wilbus in a P-47D-25 with 50% fuel and 1 notch of flaps, me in a FW 190A-8 with 50% fuel.  Wilbus followed me into a continuous stall turn.   After many revolutions (10-20) The P-47D-25 did not do more revolutions than the FW 190A-8 and did not pass and then pull ahead of the FW 190A-8.

The P-47D does have a smaller turning radius than the FW 190.  I do not and did not dispute that, as the stall-turn speed of the P-47D is about 150 mph or less and that of the FW 190A-8 is about 200 mph.  But the P-47D does not have a higher turn rate.

After all of this, Wilbus and I then did some dueling.  This doesn't signify much, as pilot skill is not equal (see point 1 above), but here's how it went.  I took up a FW 190A-8 (my very first combat in a FW 190) and he a P-47D-11, and he very quickly shot me down.  We didn't bother to try it again.  We then went up with him in a P-47D-25 and me in a Spit V.  He shot me down again during the first quick maneuver after the merge.  We went up again, and I shot him down this time -- but he had made his point.

So, what's my conclusion about all of this?

1.  Everyone is right that the P-47D turns surprisingly well initiating a stall fight.

2.  Item 1 coupled with the P-47D's very low speed in a stall fight means that it probably can beat a FW 190A-8 in a stallfight.

3.  However, once the P-47D is at low speed in a stall fight, its turn rate (which is what I was specifically talking about) is poor, as poor or worse than the FW 190A-8.

Thus, while I was correct about turn rates (unless in testing with Widewing I find Wilbus and I are incorrect in our turn rates), I was wrong to undervalue the instantaneous turn-rate and turn-radius advantages of the P-47D vs. the FW 190A-8.

[AmRaaM]

may turn well with flaps out , but takes a bit o time to deploy and retract, and once your in the slow tight turn with the p47 most anything will climb over you. and gain angle by roll turning.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Brooke
Wilbus did the test, with me as observer, in a P-47D-25 (1 notch flaps, 50% fuel, normal max power, not wep, 500 ft. altitude, steady state max-rate turn).  He did 3 revolutions in 72 seconds.  I just did it offline, same test.  72 seconds.  This is the same as the data that I posted above, but it differs greatly from Widewing's results, so I still want to get together with Widewing, which I'll try to do this week.

I was in the TA Thursday (day and evening) for 7 hours. Friday, I logged two hours in the evening. Saturday evening I was there for 1.5 hours. I kept an eye on the roster for you.

As to your testing, please post a film showing your method because using my method, I beat your times by a considerable amount.

I flew both aircraft with 50% fuel, max ammo. I take off, fly downwind, turn base and align with the runway. Altitude is about 300 feet. I gradually add power until max (no WEP). Speeds were around 257 mph (190) and 271 mph (P-47) as I pass the Radar tower, where I start the watch and roll into a left-hand turn. I then turn 3 revolutions at the absolute limit of the aircraft (fighting that tugboat of a Focke Wulf every inch of the way ).

Be sure to watch the G meter on each aircraft.

Upon aligning with the runway at the end of the 3rd turn, I stop the watch.

I do not use rudder to counteract wing drop in either type. I did not use flaps for either aircraft

Times were 58 seconds for the P-47D-25 and 64 seconds for the Fw 190A-8.

You will note that I was able to sustain 2g at 145-150 mph in the P-47 and 2g at 165-170 mph in the 190. Turn radius favored the P-47 by a significant margin. The times indicate that the Jug also wins in terms of turn rate.

Here's two short films (so short I didn't bother to zip them).

P-47D-25

Fw190A-8

My regards,

Widewing

[Wilbus]

Brooke, well, the first spit vs P47 duel was also in a D25 Not D11

Originally posted by Widewing


I flew both aircraft with 50% fuel, max ammo. I take off, fly downwind, turn base and align with the runway. Altitude is about 300 feet. I gradually add power until max (no WEP). Speeds were around 257 mph (190) and 271 mph (P-47) as I pass the Radar tower, where I start the watch and roll into a left-hand turn. I then turn 3 revolutions at the absolute limit of the aircraft (fighting that tugboat of a Focke Wulf every inch of the way ).

Heya Widewing! There we have to "problem" if that is what we can call it.

In the test Brooke did, and the one he made me do, we didn't time the revolutions untill the planes had settled for a steady speed and a more or less steady altitude.

Before Brooke started timing me in the P47 first time (and the 190 later) I did about 20 full revolutions, after 5-6 the (1 notch flaps) the speed was steady at about 130 and I then did a few more then Brooke timed 3. And yes, my arm was aching after this due to the stick forces of the Cougar I JUST WANTED IT TO END!

Windewing, if you've got time, try the same test. Don't time untill you know the planes are steady at a certain speed.

I still hold on to the fact that a 190 A8 stands no chance what so ever in a turnfight vs a P47 of any kind. And while most planes can climb away from a P47 once it is slow, a 190 A8 can't.

[Stang]

Originally posted by Wilbus
I still hold on to the fact that a 190 A8 stands no chance what so ever in a turnfight vs a P47 of any kind. And while most planes can climb away from a P47 once it is slow, a 190 A8 can't.

Yup.

The only chance an A8 has is if he's fighting a noob in the Jug that overshoots.  But even then, if the a8 misses the deflection shot, the noob will still get him.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Wilbus

Heya Widewing! There we have to "problem" if that is what we can call it.

In the test Brooke did, and the one he made me do, we didn't time the revolutions untill the planes had settled for a steady speed and a more or less steady altitude.

Before Brooke started timing me in the P47 first time (and the 190 later) I did about 20 full revolutions, after 5-6 the (1 notch flaps) the speed was steady at about 130 and I then did a few more then Brooke timed 3. And yes, my arm was aching after this due to the stick forces of the Cougar I JUST WANTED IT TO END!

Hi Wilbus,

Well, I ran the same test (film) and timed it at 65 seconds first try, 64 for the second try (this one filmed) with one notch of flaps. Prior to starting the film and the clock, I turned 20 full turns left. Speeds generally stayed in the mid 130s.

Brooke,

Honestly, I find this test virtually useless in the context of combat. Who the heck flies 20 circles? No one starts a fight at 130 mph. Seriously, 3 turns into this type of fight and the 190 driver will be back in the tower. This is not the way you fight, or hope to survive in any 190. This plane is about angles and lift vectors, flying around at 150 mph is decidedly unproductive.

The use of flaps for either aircraft distorts the data. Why not dump more flaps? Why not use flaps on the A-8? There are many variables that could be introduced. Indeed, air combat is nothing BUT uncontrolled variables. Why use 50% fuel? 50% in a Jug is a heck of a lot more weight of fuel than in a 190. Of course, ammo load is a factor. Some guys take the max load (usually a mistake as 95% of the guys flying P-47s won't live long enough to use even half of it, so why drag the extra weight?), and a few take the basic load. Even fewer take 6 guns at max load or 6 guns at basic load. It was not unusual for a P-47 pilot in WWII to have two guns removed to save weight. Weight is the most critical, controllable factor to maximizing performance (and range). One point should be made that will make some difference. I never load 425 rounds per gun. This represents the maximum magazine capacity, not the basic load-out used for all performance testing. Full ammo load was not used by the 8th AF for escort missions, they loaded the basic load-out (498 lbs), represented in AH2 at 267 rounds per gun (based upon .23 pounds per round). If you gents flew your test with max ammo, do it again with the basic load.

Essentially, we have a test with a specific load-out, done in a specific manner, neither of which will ever be precisely encountered in actual combat. Then, we test with one plane using flaps, the other not. This test really establishes nothing. Moreover, the testing is subjective as the pilot can certainly alter the outcome.

Max speed tests are simple. Max climb rate can be tested using the constant referred to as auto-climb. This test is like testing a Ferrari and Porsche to see which corners best at 30 mph around a 60 foot circle. If they ever hold a race around a 60 foot circle, the test might have some meaning. However, within the context of the real world, the test is meaningless.

I believe that my test is bit more representative of actual combat circumstances, and within THAT context, the 190A-8 is hopelessly over-matched should it try to out-turn any P-47.

The best test is always a fly-off with the pilots switching aircraft. You cannot separate pilot skills from the equation, but you can minimize the test error by making sure the pilots have similar skill levels.

Well, that's my thoughts, your's may be different.

My regards,

Widewing

[Wilbus]

I believe that my test is bit more representative of actual combat circumstances, and within THAT context, the 190A-8 is hopelessly over-matched should it try to out-turn any P-47.

Totally agree.

Btw, we did the tests with full ammo load which also explains that you were faster again.

And no, I don't think the test shows all that much, the one thing important in a turnfight is turn radius. Not turn rate.

[Kweassa]

The one thing important in a turnfight is turn radius. Not turn rate.

 I agree with this. A theoretical corner speed/max turn-rate is almost totally useless in combat.

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Widewing
I was in the TA Thursday (day and evening) for 7 hours. Friday, I logged two hours in the evening. Saturday evening I was there for 1.5 hours. I kept an eye on the roster for you.

[/b]

Yes -- sorry about that.  I couldn't make it on Thursday.  On Friday, I showed up in the Training Area at 9 pm or so Eastern and didn't see you.  I asked around on the open channel if anyone had seen you, but no one there gave me any reply.  I waited around a few minutes but figured you were there earlier and had left for the day.  On Saturday, as you said maybe Saturday mornings, I didn't check in the evening.  I will try to hook up with you this week.  My apologies for missing you.

The only reason I got together with Wilbus is that I happened to by flying in the MA about 3 am my time, and he was up -- serendipity.

As to your testing, please post a film showing your method because using my method, I beat your times by a considerable amount.

[/b]

It is here:  

p-47d-25-3revs.zip

In this film, I am doing many revolutions to get to steady state, then starting my timing.  My voice announcement of doing a revolution happens slightly after my nose passes the buildings due to the lag of me hitting the mic key and talking, but I am timing based on my nose cowl intersecting the white buildings at the runway.

Here's two short films (so short I didn't bother to zip them).

[/b]

I am pretty sure I know what is going on.  You are not in a steady-state turn when you start your timing.  You are starting it at over 200 mph, where your turn rate is going to be better than it is at steady state.  In your film, the first turn takes about 17 seconds, the second about 21 s, and the third about 23 s.  If you do that again, but do about 5-10 turns then start your timing, I think you'll get the same results as Wilbus and I did (a revolution taking about 24 s).  The only other thing that I was careful of is making sure that I started the test and ended the test at the same altitude (+/- maybe 50-100 ft), which I think you are doing, too, but wanted to mention.

Widewing, thanks for taking the time on all of this.

[Kweassa]

Wilbuz and Brooke.

 If you are interested, here's a method to test the turn time of a plane while it's pulling the tightest turn radius possible(which I believe represents combat situation), that minimizes pilot skill factor.
 
 It's a test that measures the limits of the plane without pilot skill factor involved, that has been approved as an accurate method by HT himself.

(I suggested this method to HT once, and he, agreed that it would be an accurate method)

 .......

 Simply, enable the stall limiter.

 When you set X amount of stall limiter, you will be able to pull the stick X degrees before the critical stalling AoA.

 Test the planes out, and find out a minimum stall limiter setting that will allow you to pull the stick maximum and enter a turn, which the plane will not 'wobble' and smoothly continue into. **

 Then simply, pull the stick back, and measure the turn time.

 This minimizes the involvement of pilot skill and altitude changes during the turn, and will allow you measure to the pure physical turn capabilty of the plane itself, while it is pulling the tightest turn radius possible.

 ....




Footnote:

** There is a reason why you can't just set the minum stall limiter setting.

 Most planes, can use the minimum setting, but some planes have other factors that is involved when turning.

 Because the SL is a very simple method of just limiting the plane to stop pulling at X amount of degrees before the critical stall AoA, these  factors cannot be accurately counted for, for those planes.

 For example, the Las and Bf109s have leading edge slats. If you set minimum stall limiter setting and pull the stick back, you will experience a "stop-and-go", wobbly turn.

 This is because when the plane is about to stall out, the slats pop out and stabilize it... but it only delays that stall, and the plane cannot keep up that rate of turn indefinately. Thus, it will stall out. After it stalls out, the stall limiter kicks in again, and then the plane starts turning again... this stall-stabilize-stall sequence is repeated in these planes.

 Therefore, in testing the Las and 109s, you must first find out a stall limiter setting which allows you to turn smoothly, while the stick is deflected maximum. This, is the setting that must be used when measuring turn time during tightest turn radius.


 An example of how this method was applied:

Tests and Conclusions about 109 turns

 The previous incarnation of the "Tests and Conclusions..." thread, where I got HT's approval:

Overly aggressive destabilization in 109s while turning