Author Topic: Release the Hounds  (Read 2890 times)

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2005, 01:12:08 PM »
How do you know their motivations Soda?

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2005, 01:17:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hacksaw1
Hello Skydancer,

While I am wary of jumping into this thread, your comment about Israel being a major source of the problems of the Middle East warrants a comment or two.



The turmoil in the Middle East that has spilled out into the West has less to do with Israel, and more to do with the indigenous "civilization" here than anything.

The bloody eight year Iran-Iraq war of a million casualties had NO CONNECTION WITH ISRAEL.


No Israel wasn't much involved in that war, but WE were! Saddam was our man in the ME back then.


Quote
Originally posted by hacksaw1
Lebanon's mid-1970's civil war between Druze, Christians and Moslems in which deaths may have approached 44,000, with about 180,000 wounded. No connection with Israel.


Oh I assure you Israel was plenty involved in Lebanon. So much in fact that they invaded southern Lebanon and occupied it for 20 years, to say nothing of financing and supporting the Lebanese Christian militia.

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2005, 01:43:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hacksaw1
Iran has missiles that will reach Europe - not sure about Portugal and Ireland. If it's only Israel that's the problem, then why do they need that kind of range?


What missile would that be? I know Turkey is technically part of Europe, but that's as far as Iran's missiles can go (as far as I know).

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2005, 02:16:30 PM »
Hello FalconSix,

The Federation of American Scientists lists missiles being developed with their ranges at this link:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/

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Oh I assure you Israel was plenty involved in Lebanon. So much in fact that they invaded southern Lebanon and occupied it for 20 years, to say nothing of financing and supporting the Lebanese Christian militia.


My friend, Israel did not start, nor contribute to the first three years of the Lebanese Civil War.

When attacked Israel responded.

Lebanese Civil War
On the morning of April 13, 1975, unidentified gunmen in a speeding car fired on a church in the Christian East Beirut suburb of Ain Rammanah, killing 4 people, including two Maronite Phalangists. Later that day Phalangists led by the Gemayels, killed 27 Palestinians travelling on a bus in Ein Al-Rumaneh. In December, 1975, four Christians were killed in east Beirut, and in growing reprisals, Phalangists and Muslim militias subsequently massacred at least 600 Muslims and Christians at checkpoints, igniting the 1975-1976 civil war.

The Civil War, Civilian Massacres, and Syrian intervention 1975–81
In January 1976, the Saika (a Pro-Syrian Palestinian militia) attacked the Christian city of Damour. When the city fell on 20 January, the remaining inhabitants were subject to rape, mutilation and brutal assassination. The civilain dead numbered at least 300, with one estimate being as high as 582. As a result of the massacre, most Christians began to see the Palestinian presence as a short-term threat to their survival. Moreover, the Lebanese left (that enjoyed some popularity in the Christian community and especially in the poorest classes) lost most of its legitimacy because of its support for the Palestinian cause.
The fighting eventually spread to most parts of the country, precipitating President Suleiman Franjieh's call for support from Syrian troops in June 1976, to which Syria responded by ending its prior affiliation with the Rejection Front and supporting the Maronites. This technically put Syria in the Israeli camp, as Israel had already begun to supply Maronite forces with arms, tanks, and military advisors in May 1976. (Smith, op. cit., 354.)
Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah movement joined the war on the side of the National Movement.
In June, 1976, with fighting throughout the country and the Maronites on the verge of defeat, the President called for Syrian intervention. The Damour massacre made Frangieh fear further massacres and he thought that only Syria could save the Christians from a slaughter. Syria had its own political and territorial interests in Lebanon, which harbored the fundamentalist anti-Syrian Muslim Brotherhood. Syrian troops subsequently entered Lebanon, occupying Tripoli and the Bekaa Valley, and imposed a ceasefire (Fisk, pp. 78-81) that ultimately failed to stop the conflict.
After the arrival of Syrian troops, Christian forces massacred 2,000 Palestinians in the Tel al-Za'atar camp in East Beirut. Other massacres by both sides were committed at Karantina and Damour, where the PLO murdered 350 Christian civilians (Fisk, 99). the nation was informally divided, with southern Lebanon and the western half of Beirut becoming bases for the PLO and other Muslim militias, and the Christians in control of East Beirut and the Christian section of Mt. Lebanon. The main confrontation line in divided Beirut was known as the Green Line.
In October 1976, an Arab League summit in Riyadh gave Syria a mandate to keep 40,000 troops in Lebanon as the bulk of an Arab Deterrent Force charged with disentangling the combatants and restoring calm. The Lebanese Civil War was officially ended at this point, and an uneasy quiet settled over Beirut and most of the rest of Lebanon. In the south, however, the climate began to deteriorate as a consequence of the return of PLO combatants, who had been required to vacate central Lebanon under the terms of the Riyadh Accords.

Israeli military offensive, 1978 and 1981-82
On 11 March 1978, eight Fatah militants landed on a beach in northern Israel and proceeded to take control of a passenger bus and head toward Tel Aviv. In the ensuing confrontation with Israeli forces, 34 Israelis and six of the militants died. In retaliation, Israel invaded Lebanon four days later in Operation Litani in which the IDF occupied most of the area south of the Litani River, resulting in the evacuation of at least 100,000 Lebanese (Smith, op. cit., 356), as well as approximately 2,000 deaths (Newsweek, 27 March 1978; Time, 3 April 1978; cited in Chomsky, Towards a New Cold War, p. 485 n115). The UN Security Council passed Resolution 425 calling for an immediate Israeli withdrawal and creating the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), charged with maintaining peace. Israeli forces withdrew later in 1978; however, Israel retained de facto control of the border region by turning over positions inside Lebanon to the South Lebanon Army (SLA) under the leadership of Major Saad Haddad.

My point again is that much of what happens in the Middle East, or in the West by Middle Easterners, has nothing to do with Israel.

Israel does defend itself.

Cement

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2005, 03:41:07 PM »
Ok Hacksaw. You do have a point. Its not all just about Israel.

What I realy don't understand though ( and please enlighten me as I only have a basic understanding ) is how a nation with your history can take other peoples land, bulldoze their homes and villages, put them into ghettos or drive them out, and now build a wall around them!! And not expect them to be just a bit fed up with you? It seems a bit strange.

I watched a program the other night made by an ex CIA guy about the history of suicide bombing. He went to Hebron. A palistinian town settled by Israelis. The centre was closing down as arab shopkeepers had been abused. They could no longer live there. There was racist graffiti against the arabs all over the walls. How can this be done by a people so greviously mistreated as the Jews were. To me it beggars belief.

In my line of work I deal with YP who have been abused. Its a fact that often those who are abused go on to become the abusers of others. It seems that this is what has happened in the case of Israel. I may be wrong but from the outside it seems like a mighty strange and sad situation.

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2005, 08:58:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hacksaw1
Hello FalconSix,

The Federation of American Scientists lists missiles being developed with their ranges at this link:


So Iran does NOT have missiles that can reach Europe. Thanks for clearing that up.

Offline Flit

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« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2005, 10:21:38 PM »
Sky, it's not about a war against any paticular middle east country.
  It's about a ideology that is at war against everyone else.
 Thats what you have to understand.
 The worse part is that by the very nature of "our" way of life (i.e. worship who you want, goverment by the people etc.) is letting "them" invade our country and set-up bases of operation that most of "us" don't even recognize for what they are.

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2005, 06:29:21 AM »
Hello Skydancer,

First of all, I have never said Israel is blameless in all it does. I was responding to your blanket statement.
Quote
Its blind support for Israel over the interests of the arab world that has caused this mess anyhow!

Maybe instead of that, it is actually all GB's fault for its snooty colonial rule, i.e. "The sun never sets on the British Empire." But I don't believe that either. Things are way too complex.

And while you probably didn't hear it on the BBC, recently a number of Arab Israelis made known their desire to stay within Israel in the final-settlement boundary and not be put under the Palestinian Authority. They said, "The 'hell' of Israel is better than the 'paradise' of Arafat."
 
You mention Hebron being "a palistinian (sic) town settled by Israelis."

Sorry, but this again seems to indicate a lack of understanding of history here.

Quote
Jews continued to live in Hebron after the city's conquest by the Arabs (in 638 AD), whose generally tolerant rule was welcomed, especially after the often harsh Byzantine rule -- although the Byzantines never forbade Jews from praying at the Tomb. The Arabs converted the Byzantine church at the Tomb of the Patriarchs into a mosque.
Upon capturing the city in 1100, the Crusaders expelled the Jewish community, and converted the mosque at the Tomb back into a church. The Jewish community was re-established following the Mamelukes' conquest of the city in 1260, and the Mamelukes reconverted the church at the Tomb of the Patriarchs back into a mosque. However, the restored Islamic (Mameluke) ascendancy was less tolerant than the pre-Crusader Islamic (Arab) regimes -- a 1266 decree barred Jews (and Christians) from entering the Tomb of the Patriarchs, allowing them only to ascend to the fifth, later the seventh, step outside the eastern wall. The Jewish cemetery -- on a hill west of the Tomb -- was first mentioned in a letter dated to 1290.

The Ottoman Turks' conquest of the city in 1517 was marked by a violent pogrom which included many deaths, rapes, and the plundering of Jewish homes. The surviving Jews fled to Beirut and did not return until 1533. In 1540, Jewish exiles from Spain acquired the site of the "Court of the Jews" and built the Avraham Avinu ("Abraham Our Father") synagogue. (One year -- according to local legend -- when the requisite quorum for prayer was lacking, the Patriarch Abraham himself appeared to complete the quorum; hence, the name of the synagogue.)

Despite the events of 1517, its general poverty and a devastating plague in 1619, the Hebron Jewish community grew. Throughout the Turkish period (1517-1917), groups of Jews from other parts of the Land of Israel, and the Diaspora, moved to Hebron from time to time, joining the existing community, and the city became a rabbinic center of note.

In 1775, the Hebron Jewish community was rocked by a blood libel, in which Jews were falsely accused of murdering the son of a local sheikh. The community -- which was largely sustained by donations from abroad -- was made to pay a crushing fine, which further worsened its already shaky economic situation. Despite its poverty, the community managed, in 1807, to purchase a 5-dunam plot -- upon which the city's wholesale market stands today -- and after several years the sale was recognized by the Hebron Waqf. In 1811, 800 dunams of land were acquired to expand the cemetery. In 1817, the Jewish community numbered approximately 500, and by 1838, it had grown to 700, despite a pogrom which took place in 1834, during Mohammed Ali's rebellion against the Ottomans (1831-1840).

In 1870, a wealthy Turkish Jew, Haim Yisrael Romano, moved to Hebron and purchased a plot of land upon which his family built a large residence and guest house, which came to be called Beit Romano. The building later housed a synagogue and served as a yeshiva, before it was seized by the Turks. During the Mandatory period, the building served the British administration as a police station, remand center, and court house.

In 1893, the building later known as Beit Hadassah was built by the Hebron Jewish community as a clinic, and a second floor was added in 1909. The American Zionist Hadassah organization contributed the salaries of the clinic's medical staff, who served both the city's Jewish and Arab populations.

During World War I, before the British occupation, the Jewish community suffered greatly under the wartime Turkish administration. Young men were forcibly conscripted into the Turkish army, overseas financial assistance was cut off, and the community was threatened by hunger and disease. However, with the establishment of the British administration in 1918, the community, reduced to 430 people, began to recover. In 1925, Rabbi Mordechai Epstein established a new yeshiva, and by 1929, the population had risen to 700 again.

On 23 August 1929, local Arabs devastated the Jewish community by perpetrating a vicious, large-scale, organized, pogrom. According to the Encyclopedia Judaica:

"The assault was well planned and its aim was well defined: the elimination of the Jewish settlement of Hebron. The rioters did not spare women, children, or the aged; the British gave passive assent. Sixty-seven were killed, 60 wounded, the community was destroyed, synagogues razed, and Torah scrolls burned."

59 of the 67 victims were buried in a common grave in the Jewish cemetery (including 23 who had been murdered in one house alone, and then dismembered), and the surviving Jews fled to Jerusalem. (During the violence, Haj Issa el-Kourdieh -- a local Arab who lived in a house in the Jewish Quarter -- sheltered 33 Jews in his basement and protected them from the rioting mob.)

However, in 1931, 31 Jewish families returned to Hebron and re-established the community. This effort was short-lived, and in April 1936, fearing another massacre, the British authorities evacuated the community.

Following the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, and the invasion by Arab armies, Hebron was captured and occupied by the Jordanian Arab Legion. During the Jordanian occupation, which lasted until 1967, Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor -- despite the Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city. Additionally, the Jordanian authorities and local residents undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate any evidence of the Jewish presence in the city. They razed the Jewish Quarter, desecrated the Jewish cemetery and built an animal pen on the ruins of the Avraham Avinu synagogue.


So, as I said, things over here are complex.

Best Regards,

Cement

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2005, 09:16:58 AM »
they are not complex for all the anti semite euros on this board.

lazs

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2005, 10:11:39 AM »
Quote
So Iran does NOT have missiles that can reach Europe. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote
Shahab-5
Country:       Iran
Associated Countries:       North Korea
Class:       IRBM or SLV
Basing:       Surface based
Warhead:       Single warhead
Propulsion:       2 or 3-stage liquid/solid
Range:       4,000 km
Status:       Development
In Service:       Exp. 2005

Details

The Shahab-5 is a multiple-stage fuel rocket claimed as an intermediate-range missile. The missile is believed to be based on the North Korean Taep’o-dong 2. As a result of its likely inaccuracy, the missile’s utility is probably restricted to attacking population centers or spreading radiation rather than hitting military targets. The missile is thus probably more of a blackmail or terrorist weapon than a military asset.

The Shahab-5 is still in development and is not slated to enter service in Iran until around 2005. There is little concrete information regarding its capabilities, other than that it will most likely consist of two or three liquid/solid propellant stages. Some reports claim that the missile’s range will be around 4,000 km (2,485 miles). If these report are accurate, they place the Shahab-5 among the new class of long range missiles being produced by Iran in conjunction with North Korea. Like the Shahab-6, the Shahab-5 owes most of its technology to the North Korean Taep’o-dong 2, which in turn is largely derived from Chinese technology.

The integration of technology from the North Korean Taep’o-dong 2 missile into the Shahab-5 represents a substantial security concern for the U.S., as it is the stepping stone to the development of an Iranian ICBM. If its 4,000 km reported range is accurate, the Shahab-5 will be able to target most of Europe, Russia, and Asia. The United Kingdom, a staunch ally of the U.S., will be completely vulnerable to an attack, as will be a number of other key U.S. allies. In addition, the possibility exists that Iran will give or sell its missile technology to rogue states or terrorist groups antagonistic to the U.S. Iran’s military is known to support terrorist groups and the Iranian government has little control over its own missile force.(1)



http://www.missilethreat.com/missiles/shahab-5_iran.html

Okay, so expected operation by, eh, 2005.

All the best.

Cement

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2005, 10:20:34 AM »
what's all the talk bout range of missiles?

the next nuke will be hand delivered, arrive by boat, plane, train or auto - no rocket needed
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2005, 02:54:34 AM »
Ok fair enough hacksaw1. I did say that I  only get what I see on the news! Thanks for the history lesson.  I still think that its a pity that two peoples who have an equal claim on the land can't live together, govern together, etc. It also seems a bit wrong that one group own most of the territory and the other live in walled off enclosures.

It also saddens me that from the terrible events of recent history the group of people I would've expected to never want to see Racism, segregation, and subjugation repeated again are involved in those very actions.

I'm not an anti semite for the record ( thanks Lazs. In my book that counts as personal insult ) But I realy don't understand why history has to repeat itself especialy in Israel.

I'm not saying that blowing up kids and women on busses is right either. But I can see why the Palistinian population might be just a tad annoyed about their current lot in life and some might resort to fighting back in the only way they think is left to them.

Why couldn't the governance of that part of the ME be a shared thing rather than a segregated thing? As I see it the only alternative is perpetual war and bloodshed. Not a very satisfactory situation for either side. Where are the men of real vision in that part of the world. Prepared to stick their neck out and do something radicaly different from the years of hatred and bitterness I see on my TV screen?

( by the way this is not an attack. thisd is a genuine question )

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2005, 03:05:28 AM »
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I'm not saying that blowing up kids and women on busses is right either. But I can see why the Palistinian population might be just a tad annoyed about their current lot in life and some might resort to fighting back in the only way they think is left to them.


It isn't the only way to fight.


And this man showed it is effective from a minority population
 

Neither blew up busses, instead we have Hamas, Hezbolla, and Islamic "Holy men" in suburban London.
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2005, 03:17:35 AM »
Yes you have a good point.

I don't think those guys will be here for too much longer. At least they might be but they'll be behind bars untill we find somewhere for em.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2005, 04:22:55 AM »
I like SkyDancer.
He may be a left-wing Blairite pinko, but he's not afraid to express what he believes in, and is honest about it. :aok:cool: