Author Topic: Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?  (Read 9015 times)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #165 on: November 03, 2005, 02:40:37 PM »
British claims for LW losses vs. British estimations of LW sorties, that is a major waste of time and bandwidth.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #166 on: November 03, 2005, 03:45:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
British claims for LW losses vs. British estimations of LW sorties, that is a major waste of time and bandwidth.


So provide the data (sorties & losses) for the LW instead. You are suppose to be the German expert. Are you afraid to?

What I posted shows how you make a big deal out of RAF losses even though German losses were heavier.:eek:

Offline Nashwan

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #167 on: November 03, 2005, 04:10:47 PM »
Typical Isegrim, to use RAF estimates of Luftwaffe figures when they favour his argument.

Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy, gives the figures for the 7th September afternoon raid on London as:

348 bombers, accompanied by "everything Osterkamp could muster, a toal of 617 Bf 109s and Bf 110s"

In response:

"All the 21 squadrons within 70 miles of London were either at readiness or in the air"

Losses for the raid were 14 German bombers, 16 109s and 7 110s, the RAF lost 23 fighters and 6 pilots.

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #168 on: November 04, 2005, 01:30:21 AM »
Hehe, I think the website can be discarded. Picking some data from it and not other makes no sense.
The data I have been using matches the one Nashwan just entered. So we have Steven Bungay, Johnny Johnsson, John Alcorn, Martin Gilbert, Adolf Galland,Douglas Bader and Christopher Shores, all stating the same thing.
I think that weights a bit more than a website.
The website none the less has good chunks in it, for it's basically the day's reports, - the info the RAF received at the time. How comes nobody quotes this:
"It is estimated that about 120 enemy aircraft operated over Great Britain during the night 6th/7th September and 700 during the day of 7th September"

700 is not far from 1000 you know, and I very much suspect that the higher number arrived later, either through Enigma, or in post war surveys of LW reports.

As for debating about past events, or clinging on to certain dates, I must say that debaiting about anything at all is always pointless if the participants cannot read, or will not accept absolutely established facts.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #169 on: November 04, 2005, 04:04:33 AM »
Quote
The figures for Fighter Command are somewhat higher than those quoted in other sources but have been taken directly from PRO AIR 20/2307.


That "Website" is an article from a professional military logistocal publictation.

I would say it is much more credible than any anecdotes or book published 20 years ago.

There has been a wealth of new information uncovered on the airwar recently Angus, particularly the Luftwaffe.

You might be impressed with your sources.  Me, I will take the British Government, the RAF, and a professional publication.

When my copy of PRO AIR 20/2307 arrives it will be interesting to see what else it contains.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #170 on: November 04, 2005, 04:36:22 AM »
Most of the anecdotes I pick are verified from the logbooks.
Squadron ops books are based on logbooks and/or pot-mission debriefing.
The website contains what seems to be partially incomplete day-to-day collection of events.
It is data from 65 years ago Crumpp and only from the RAF.
It is as correct as it was - then.
It does not contain LW data. Just what the RAF saw.
LW sends 1000 aircraft according to beforementioned sources, RAF spots 700.
It's like losses and claims. While a loss according to the sources of the one that it occured to, - say LW - remains ABSOLUTE,  - the claim remains debatable.
So, if the LW sais they sent 1000 aircraft, and have it on record, while a RAF website sais they saw 700 I tend to belive the LW.
If the LW sais they lost 30 aircraft while the RAF claims 70 I tend to belive that the LW did lose 30, maybe more.
Do you get what I am saying ?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #171 on: November 04, 2005, 01:00:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Typical Isegrim, to use RAF estimates of Luftwaffe figures when they favour his argument.
[/B]

Just for the record, you are the notorious freud here, not me.

Quote
Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy, gives the figures for the 7th September afternoon raid on London as:

348 bombers, accompanied by "everything Osterkamp could muster, a toal of 617 Bf 109s and Bf 110s"

In response:

"All the 21 squadrons within 70 miles of London were either at readiness or in the air"

Losses for the raid were 14 German bombers, 16 109s and 7 110s, the RAF lost 23 fighters and 6 pilots. [/B]




We can safely ignore this - if it's not made up by you of course, as it's often the case - since it disagrees with the RAF's own daily reports, as noted above.

Typical Nashwan, he manipulates the evidence to rewrite history.
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Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #172 on: November 04, 2005, 03:57:54 PM »
Kuffie, can you please explain your last post?
Nashwan was quoting Bungay.
Bungay sais the same as ....Galland, who sais the same as Bader, who's numbers have been looked into by Gilbert, Shores, Alcorn and so on. Post war file browsing from both sides takes place. Numbers get polished to the absolutely possible detail.
So, I can not see Nash rewriting history, and selective picking from websites remains as what it is, - rubbish!
Or would you perhaps pick the RAF claims from the website as an absolute?
If you do, the LW had 10% losses that day.....:D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #173 on: November 04, 2005, 04:24:16 PM »
Quote
It is data from 65 years ago Crumpp and only from the RAF.


Until now Angus, the RAF strength reports were more of a mystery than the Luftwaffes.

It is rather easy to line up the numbers to see that the RAF had numerical superiority in single engine fighters for much of the Battle of Britain.

It has been done ad nauseum in this thread.  You cannot take a one day exception and hold that as the general rule.

The general trend for the Battle of Britain is:

1.  For the formations which the defending single engine fighters outnumbered the attacks, few losses were suffered by the Luftwaffe.

2.  On raids in which numerical parity existed, both sides took relatively equal casualties.  This was done by the skillful use of radar ground control.

3.  For raids in which the defenders outnumbered the attackers, the Luftwaffe took proportionate casualties.  Again this was done with the skillful use of radar ground control.

Certainly no individual aircraft performance conclusions can be reached from any of the battles.  The claim of the RAF single engine fighters holding off vastly superior numbers of Luftwaffe single engine fighters is simply not true.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2005, 02:31:43 AM »
Crumpp:
"It is rather easy to line up the numbers to see that the RAF had numerical superiority in single engine fighters for much of the Battle of Britain."

As far as I can see, the lines crossed. At the Fall of France the RAF was down to 400, their aircraft production doing more than patching up through the BoB, while pilot shortage was a more serious issue. I don't think we disagree there.
The day I quote, the 7th of Sept is only exceptional in the way, that is marks the beginning of the London raids, and both sides clashed with full force, so to speak. I have referred to it because I found quite much data on it. Eagle day is well covered also, and 15th of September as well.
Galland chops the battle down into 5 phases, which is pretty fair,- Channel fight, radar strikes, FC strikes, London bombed and then at night only.
It is only at phase 4 that the RAF manages to strike big raids with several squadrons at once,- untill then, for quite obvious reasons (TIME) most of the interceptions were 1-2 squadrons, - 12-24 aircraft. If they made a bounce they had success,- diving through the fighter screen, getting some bursts, and then mixing it with the escorts.
If the were unsuccessful the escorts would chop them up badly.
This here:
"The claim of the RAF single engine fighters holding off vastly superior numbers of Luftwaffe single engine fighters is simply not true."

Who claimed this? Holding off???????
I have given ample quotes on little interceptions against big groups. They existed whether you bang your head against it or not. They existed, and caused big debates within the RAF, - eventually leading to the demotion of Park and Dowding and the rise of Trafford Leigh-Mallory. This is the famous BIG-WING debate, which is well covered in every book about the BoB.
In fact, Johnny Johnsson and Bader never agreed on the issue, - I have read a letter from Bader to Johnny from long long after the war, where they are still debating.
Fact remains: Untill the LW started bombing London, the RAF mostly intercepted in squadron size.
You have yet to show me some authentic quotes on big interceptions.....

But the smaller ones were not totally bad you know. The escorts could not endlessly follow the attackers, for there would be more and more, again and again. The radar saw to that. Although not perfected (read up on the battle of barking hill), the radar made sure that the interceptors made a lot of contact. And when the LW stretched inland and gave the RAF some 20 minutes more to react, the squadrons could finally asseble into bigger packets. This is the famous essence of the BoB day, - all available squadrons (some 40% or so of RAF single engined fighters) were successfully thrown at the full punch of the Luftwaffe, while the Luftwaffe had not realized that the RAF actually had that many. What were available reserve squadrons on BoB day (Another very famous moment) should LW make an extra raid? NONE! Both had the full swing going!
Galland realized, none the less, that the RAF had both fewer fighters and were "technically" inferior to the 109 (slower). He puts this so:
"Ich kann von dem kampf der britischen jagdflieger nicht anderes als mit höchster Bewunderung berichten. Zahlenmessich und auch technisch unterlegen, unermudlich und tapfer kampfend, sind sie in diesen fur England wohl schwersten Zeiten des krieges zweifellos die retter des Vaterlandes geworden"

Why did the LW draw back? Because the shortening daylight made only 1 raid possible per day, the RAF seemed to be growing, the escorts had to short range to do their job properly, and the LW had taken quite a beating.
Galland puts the failiure largely on the limited range of the 109. But it all adds up, doesn't it......
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #175 on: November 05, 2005, 08:45:44 AM »
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"The claim of the RAF single engine fighters holding off vastly superior numbers of Luftwaffe single engine fighters is simply not true."


Wow!!

How many times do we have to go over this in the same thread?

Check around 2 pages back and I believe it is also reprinted again on Page 4.

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The 109s did pretty good? Not with 51.5% of the LW casualities being 109s and out numbering the Spits and Hurries of 11 Group by at least 2:1. (11 Group being the main combat area)


Is a clearly a gross exaggeration that is wrong.  We were not comparing total aircraft. It was claimed that the 109 outnumbered the Spitfires and Hurricanes 2:1.

And that somehow that could reflect on RAF single engine fighter performance.

Your wrong. Don't go throwing up a strawman or change the subject.

Quote
I have given ample quotes on little interceptions against big groups.


In comparision of total aircraft, yes the Luftwaffe had more. That was never an issue in this discussion. They did not have the overwhelming mass required to win a war of attrition.

You have given ample evidence of single individuals relating what they could see in their very very limited view of the battlefield.

None of which contradicts any of the documented strength reports.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #176 on: November 05, 2005, 09:11:00 AM »
Ahemm, Crumpp.
"Is a clearly a gross exaggeration that is wrong. We were not comparing total aircraft. It was claimed that the 109 outnumbered the Spitfires and Hurricanes 2:1."

Cut this clear. The 109's equalled roughly the Spits and Hurricanes put together.

The 109's only worked on the south clashing with merely the half of the RAF's Hurricanes and Spitfires. Because of the ranges, of course.

That actually, as a matter of fact, goes pretty near 2:1

To add on that, the RAF usually intercepted in squadron packets.

Now, your turn. Please find me some data on swarms of RAF fighters intercepting less their numbers.

And then this:
"You have given ample evidence of single individuals relating what they could see in their very very limited view of the battlefield"

Those individuals? Bader? Galland? Big names in the battle, Galland climbing fast to the top meeting with Hitler, Göring etc, while also fighting, while Bader is corresponding with Leigh Mallory as well as being in the battle. You're being silly here, - the rest I have quoted to are post war historians, (excluding Johnsson). ALL BIG GUNS IN THE BUSINESS.

To top that, Galland and Bader became firm friends, and compared their tactics and stories very well. So did Rall and Johnsson, by the way!

If you want to check back on the pages, I belive you will find some input from yourself that I have put to sleep, by the way.

I'll see if I have the time to pick them up. Well, somebody else might ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #177 on: November 05, 2005, 09:30:14 AM »
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Ahemm, Crumpp.
"Is a clearly a gross exaggeration that is wrong. We were not comparing total aircraft. It was claimed that the 109 outnumbered the Spitfires and Hurricanes 2:1."

Cut this clear. The 109's equalled roughly the Spits and Hurricanes put together.


Correct conclusion and yes we are comparing frontline single engine fighters.

Quote
The 109's only worked on the south clashing with merely the half of the RAF's Hurricanes and Spitfires. Because of the ranges, of course.

That actually, as a matter of fact, goes pretty near 2:1

To add on that, the RAF usually intercepted in squadron packets.


Not really.  It's been covered in this thread several times in this thread.  In fact you contradict yourself in this statement above.  

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #178 on: November 05, 2005, 09:53:49 AM »
You still have your problem, eh Crumpp?

As of Aug 13/16 1940:

Luftflotte 2 had 544 109s.

11 Group had 352 Spits(6 squadrons)/Hurries(16 squadrons).

So, a ratio of 109s to 11 Group is 1.55:1 in the LW's favor.

On Sept 6/7 1940:

Luftflotte 2 had 667 109s.

11 Group had 352 Spits/Hurries.

So the ratio of 109s to 11 Group is now 1.89:1 in the LW's favor.

That is not even considering the the RAF fighters would be split between taking on the German fighters and the German bombers. :eek: The German bombers were the primary targets for the RAF fighters, not the LW fighters. If half the RAF fighters went after the bombers, the ratio is 3:1 to almost 4:1 in the LW's favor.

Oh, that's right the LW bombers were only a mirage.

Offline Angus

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Spitfire Vb: Did it carry 120 rnds OR 240 rnds of Cannons?
« Reply #179 on: November 05, 2005, 10:25:33 AM »
Hehe, you forget Luftflotte III ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)