Why was 109G10 retired ??

[Bruno]

Like you say, hes looking at real world loadouts not "what could have been" loadouts.

The same goes for the F-4, only 240 or so F-4/R1s were made, even fewer kept the gondolas out 1800 or so F-4s produced. Or the G-6, only 181 were produced in '43. Out of 12k total G-6 production just 1680 or so were G-6/U4s.

G-6/U4
Produced 1943 : 181
01/1944 : 119
02/1944 : 51
03/1944 : 303
04/1944 : 404
05/1944 : 118
06/1944 : 144
07/1944 : 240
08/1944 : 49
09/1944 : 55
10/1944 : 14

No more '43 scenarios where every G-6 is tooling around with 3cm + gondolas. Same with the F-4. The load outs for the 109 now more representative of what you would run into.

[ghi]

Originally posted by Bruno
I for one don't care anything about gondolas, who gets in a sports car to pick-up fat chicks?
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imop,G10, was the best german fighter, not only bomber buster,
 K-4 with 65 rounds is going to be a hangar queen, like Yak9-T, those big caliber cannos are hard to hit something and the mgs are useless anyway, most players rtb when are out of cannon shells

[1K3]

looks like 109K-4 will be an elite plane only.

[SpinDoc1]

I wouldn't exactly call the MG useless, ghi.  13mm are slightly larger than US .50 cal (at 12.7mm), and they seem to be able to take some parts off of aircraft when concentrated well.  You can also use them to range other aircraft and get them to break off a run-away maneuver.  That way they will be put in useful range of that 30mm.  I will agree that the spud cannon is hard to aim though...  better set convergence out at max, that way the trajectory drop isn't as pronounced (when it's set to D650, it won't have dropped as much by D300, whereas if set to D300 it will have dropped considerably).

[AutoPilot]

I have been in the G-14 and the K,and they both out perform the G-10.

Maybe if you guys tryed something besides the Ho-N-Go you would see that.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by ghi

Originally posted by Bruno
I for one don't care anything about gondolas, who gets in a sports car to pick-up fat chicks?
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imop,G10, was the best german fighter, not only bomber buster,
 K-4 with 65 rounds is going to be a hangar queen, like Yak9-T, those big caliber cannos are hard to hit something and the mgs are useless anyway, most players rtb when are out of cannon shells

3cm is 1 shot - 1 kill on any fighter. That's a potential of 65 kills, even if your hit % averages around 10%, that's 6 kills per sortie. 2 to 4 hits to kill a bomber (depending where you hit them) is plenty to down 3 or 4 of them. Comparing it to the 9T is ridiculous. The 9T in no way comes close to the K-4s performance.

fyi,

Late war 109s were not designed for 'bomber busting' anyway.

[Bruno]

I have been in the G-14 and the K,and they both out perform the G-10.

The G-10 that had AH had before the last patch has the same performance as the current K-4. The previous G-10 was a K-4 in all but name and a few load outs options (2cm, Gondolas etc...). All they did was fix the name and load outs to be more representative of what you would have seen at the time.

The G-14 is just a G-6 + MW-50 (WEP). Without WEP the G-14 will perform just like the G-6 on MIL power. On WEP, below FTH, is where the G-14 out performs the G-6. It doesn't perform better then the old G-10.

[gatt]

In which movie does the G-14 outperform the old G-10?

The 13mm are useless. 13mm larger than a 12,7mm? Yes, perhaps in diameter. Have you ever seen an allied .50 cartridge close to a german 13mm?

Late 109 not used as buff hunter in the real thing? Surely it is less unhistorical than those "aces" that:
- use Typhoons (et al) to kamikaze on fields and CVs,
- use big level bombers to dive bomb,
- drop tanks just before the merge, then dogfight with 25% fuel and then ditch if needed,
I mean: the whole arena is full of planes used "unhistorically".

Pulling away the G-10 and his gondolas took off a good chance to intercept heavy bombers. The K-4's theoretical 60 fighter and 10 buff kills are .... well, you can imagine what.

[Bruno]

Late 109 not used as buff hunter in the real thing? Surely it is less unhistorical than those "aces" that:

Who said the K-4 can't attack bombers? In AH they will and do. The 3cm is more then enough to bring them down. However, the K-4 is better dog fighter. Gondolas make it less of an effective interceptor and less a dog fighter, They add weight and drag. Climb rate, top speed and acceleration are all adversely affected by the gondolas.

They didn't 'pull away' the G-10, they simply gave it it's correct name. You can argue all you want for a gondola option, as I said JG26's K-4s were delivered with them, but Kurfürst is a fighter. Putting gondolas on a fighter is just wrong...

[gatt]

Sure, the K-4 is an exceptional dogfighter, even better than the G-10. I'm happy to have it.

What I'm saying is that the G-10 with gondolas was an exceptional buff hunter. And I like buff hunting in the MA. From initial performance tests (speed, acceleration and ROC) the G-14 with gondolas seems much inferior.

No, I dont mix dogfighting with buff hunting  

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Bruno
Who said the K-4 can't attack bombers? In AH they will and do. The 3cm is more then enough to bring them down. However, the K-4 is better dog fighter. Gondolas make it less of an effective interceptor and less a dog fighter, They add weight and drag. Climb rate, top speed and acceleration are all adversely affected by the gondolas.

They didn't 'pull away' the G-10, they simply gave it it's correct name. You can argue all you want for a gondola option, as I said JG26's K-4s were delivered with them, but Kurfürst is a fighter. Putting gondolas on a fighter is just wrong...

And doing what makes sense for the game is the right way to go.  The Spit VIII, IX, XVI and XIV are limited to the 30 gallon slipper tank.  You could argue that they also used the 45 and 90 gallon tanks, but that's silly in terms of game use other then to 'game the game'.  

K4 was a dogfighter.  Did it ever carry gondolas?  Yes.  Does it make sense in the overall?  As bruno points out, no.  It's a dogfighter.  You want to hunt buffs, take a 190.

To model every possible alternative is overkill.  Be thankful we have as many options as we have.  The crowd at HTC is doing just fine that way and they also clearly are taking the input from the player base and making the best possible decisions so that their time and resources are used to the best overall advantage of the game itself.

[gatt]

HTC is doing an excellent work.

The K-4 is an excellent dogfighter. But not a buff hunter.

They pull away a good buff hunter already present in the planeset with no apparent reason. Solution: put gondolas on the K-4.

The G-14 with gondolas doesnt seem as good as the G-10.

We, axis players, need a buff hunter. Use the FW190?    Boy, we are not in the real thing where B-17 where chased and downed even by twin engined fighter at altitude. We are in the Main. Take up a 190A-8, get to 25K and then chase buff in the Main. Good luck  

All clear?

[AKFokerFoder+]

I think that removing the 30mm from the G6 and the gondolas from the F4/K4 will make those rides less attractive in the MA.

What I think will happen is that the use of 109s will decrease in the MA.

I have been flying the F4 and the G6 with the gondolas.  My philosophy is that it is much easier to turn with any bogey after you remove his wing.  And in that scenario, gondolas don't matter.

I took the Spit 16 up, and if they don't perk that puppy, screw it, I'm going from being a 109 pilot to being a Spit pilot.  HT chooses the plane set options, but I get to choose the plane.

I seriously doubt that the G6 or F4 are going to be that competative anymore in an arena full of Spit16's.  That Spit16 will probably replace the L Gay 7 as the ride of choice.

I am really getting tired of trying to be competative in something other than the uber rides.  The 109F4/G6  used to be a nice balance of firepower and maneuverability in a ride that wasn't just for newbie yank and banker's.  Take away the firepower, and now you just have a German Yak with a decent fuel loadout.

Since in all reality, no one gives a rat's behind about what my score is, or in what plane I got that score, why not fly Spits?

I think I'll just join the dweebs

[Oleg]

Originally posted by gatt
They pull away a good buff hunter already present in the planeset with no apparent reason.

"apparent reason" is 109K-4 with gondolas wasnt used wide enough to keep them in ord's list.
Want LW buff intercepter? Take Me262 or Me163.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I think that removing the 30mm from the G6 and the gondolas from the F4/K4 will make those rides less attractive in the MA.

What I think will happen is that the use of 109s will decrease in the MA.

I have been flying the F4 and the G6 with the gondolas.  My philosophy is that it is much easier to turn with any bogey after you remove his wing.  And in that scenario, gondolas don't matter.

I took the Spit 16 up, and if they don't perk that puppy, screw it, I'm going from being a 109 pilot to being a Spit pilot.  HT chooses the plane set options, but I get to choose the plane.

I seriously doubt that the G6 or F4 are going to be that competative anymore in an arena full of Spit16's.  That Spit16 will probably replace the L Gay 7 as the ride of choice.

I am really getting tired of trying to be competative in something other than the uber rides.  The 109F4/G6  used to be a nice balance of firepower and maneuverability in a ride that wasn't just for newbie yank and banker's.  Take away the firepower, and now you just have a German Yak with a decent fuel loadout.

Since in all reality, no one gives a rat's behind about what my score is, or in what plane I got that score, why not fly Spits?

I think I'll just join the dweebs

So why not take what you like and fly it to the best of it's abilities and yours and see how you do?

I spend the majority of my time in a 38G and that's not going to change.  It starts to sound like score and k/d are the higher priority.  If you like a particular 109 variant, make yourself the best 109 driver out there.  You may die more against the 'uber' rides, but the pleasure comes from beating those guys too in a less then uber ride.  Who cares what the rest of the AH world thinks?

Nothing feels better then knocking down an LA7 or a N1K in a 38G.  It means to some degree that I outflew the pilot in that better performing bird.