Neat stuff from grunts in Iraq

[Gunslinger]

In these types of discussion's I'm allways reminded of the battle of bellaue wood during WWI.  This is the battle that the US Marines earned their nick name's "Devil Dog"  You see the German's were setting up for an advance and the Marines were digging in.  The Marines were well out of the range for the German's when they started but the Germans were well within range for the Marines.  While the Germans were gathering up they were getting plinked off easily by standard Marine Rifleman who knew marksmenship.  The German advance didn't stand a chance and they could not accuratly return fire.

I'd rather have a 7.62 infantry rifle but in non-urban warfare if it were a choice between the M16 and the AK I'd take the 16 every time, even if I had to clean the hell out of it.  Bringing back the M14 as a standard infantry rifle sounds like a good Idea, although I havn't heard much lately on the new XM-8.

[joowenn]

Ive never seen an ak-47 with a scope on it, then again what do I know.

[Excel1]

A very interesting thread.

My understanding of the reason that the US army dropped the M14 in favour of the M16 is because in the age of select fire assault weapons the M14 was a turkey: it was too big, and by not having a straight line stock or buffer made it uncontrollable for most users on full auto. Plus the 7.62 cartridge was considered to be too big for a select fire rifle anyhow.

Imo the .223/5.56 round is too small for military use and the M16 should have been chambered for a bigger round, but Armalite stuffed things up to begin with by designing the AR15 to use a varmint round- the .222rem, which was too underpowered to use in a military rifle. The .223/5.56 was a compromise that avoided them having to stretch the action of the rifle to get a larger cartridge to fit.

As for the penetrating abilities of 5.56x45 ball ammo it depends on which ball ammo you refer too; the Vietnam era M193 ball or the current NATO SS109/M855 ball. They are as different as chalk and cheese. Lazs gave a good description of M193 ball, the thin jacketed little pill fragments on targets at close range causing messy wounds out of proportion to its size. At longer range when the projectile's velocity falls below a certain point it holds together to become a puny .22cal body piercer. NATO SS109 on the other hand is armour piercing. It has a steel insert in its lead core and was designed to defeat body armour. It doesn't fragment...it's a puny .22cal body piercer from the moment it leaves the muzzle.

I checked out the armour piercing abilities of SS109 ball with a Colt carbine just to satisfy my own curiosity. I dragged a 3'x3' 3/8ths (10mm) thick mild steel plate out into a paddock and shot the crap out of it of from 50 yards. Every round punched a hole in the plate, and although it looked like most of the lead cores fused to the plate I wouldn't like to be behind anything less than 3/4 - 1" of steel if I was on the wrong end of an SS109 loaded weapon at close range.

Excel

[lada]

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
A lot of people make different choices.  Your comment in the face of observable fact is yet more evidence of humanity's stupidity.

yeah here we go, some soldier post article about "traditional" weapons and he describe them as "all the time jammed POS, because of the send", then we have soldier here, who post his picture with AK and confirm that there is a real poing about first post and of course im LFUKBGVRSLAB&*P#BV#&OQB$%Q#&*P  when i point on the same thing and thanks to him for the picture....

yeah ... realy plenty of stupidity around.... i agree.

Originally posted by Gunslinger

Lada, if we were 600 meters away from eachother, you had an AK, and I had an M-16A2.....I garundamtee ya you'd be dead before me.

Ok... If you dont mind, that i pick Ak-10x  or Vzor-58

[lada]

Originally posted by joowenn
Ive never seen an ak-47 with a scope on it, then again what do I know.

LOL another expert who belive, that AK-47 is latest model .. come on... try google, you will find plenty of AKs with scoops, knifes, lights and so on

[lada]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Notice the rag, center picture, under the tank?

Thats superiority dude

ummm .. that white rag seems to be.... "something sharp has fallen on my picture.. damm it" ?
And i also noted, that half of the tank is in fire and soldier is ok... or is it just a rest of the drink ?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lada
ummm .. that white rag seems to be.... "something sharp has fallen on my picture.. damm it" ?
And i also noted, that half of the tank is in fire and soldier is ok... or is it just a rest of the drink ?

Nice try lada, but a no cigar. You'll never make the kgb with that sort of attempt

[lazs2]

I think we will all admit that the russian weapons are more reliable with less maintenance and... far less accurate.   Most soldiers aren't well trained marksmen and soviet troops got even less practic than most so the weapon worked well for them and countless "insurgents" around the globe with little firearms background or experiance.  those guys would have nothing but junk to show if they had m16's

The 223 is very very erratic in it's ability to stop or kill... the soviet 7.62 x 39 is dependably mediocre in that respect.

The m14 was dropped for a number of reasons.. it was a bad idea to make it full auto anyway.  It is an excellent weapon in semi auto and would get the job done better than the m16 or ak.  It is a better weapon than the FN's and such too.

lazs

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
In these types of discussion's I'm allways reminded of the battle of bellaue wood during WWI.  This is the battle that the US Marines earned their nick name's "Devil Dog"  You see the German's were setting up for an advance and the Marines were digging in.  The Marines were well out of the range for the German's when they started but the Germans were well within range for the Marines.  While the Germans were gathering up they were getting plinked off easily by standard Marine Rifleman who knew marksmenship.  The German advance didn't stand a chance and they could not accuratly return fire.

What does this have to do with the accuracy between AK and M16?
Americans and Germans used about just as powerful rounds, except germans had a slightly more accurate round design.
In the example it is more about invidual skills than the accuracy of guns.

Also M16 and the powerful stantard rifle rounds back then are in a waaaay different class.
M16's hardly penetrates crap compared to the old rifles.
A tree trunk could cover you from an M16 round, but not from a .30-06.

The story doesn't tell either did the Marines use M1903 or M1 Garand.
Garand had a better suppression capability than Kar98K

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Fishu
What does this have to do with the accuracy between AK and M16?
Americans and Germans used about just as powerful rounds, except germans had a slightly more accurate round design.
In the example it is more about invidual skills than the accuracy of guns.

Also M16 and the powerful stantard rifle rounds back then are in a waaaay different class.
M16's hardly penetrates crap compared to the old rifles.
A tree trunk could cover you from an M16 round, but not from a .30-06.

The story doesn't tell either did the Marines use M1903 or M1 Garand.
Garand had a better suppression capability than Kar98K

it has to do with accuracy/range in comparing an M-16 to an AK.  that's ALL I was getting at.  Caliber and other things make a difference I'd agree but I'm saying I wouldnt trade a weapon that had an effective range of 550 meters for a 300 meter weapon.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Fishu
What does this have to do with the accuracy between AK and M16?
Americans and Germans used about just as powerful rounds, except germans had a slightly more accurate round design.
In the example it is more about invidual skills than the accuracy of guns.

Also M16 and the powerful stantard rifle rounds back then are in a waaaay different class.
M16's hardly penetrates crap compared to the old rifles.
A tree trunk could cover you from an M16 round, but not from a .30-06.

The story doesn't tell either did the Marines use M1903 or M1 Garand.
Garand had a better suppression capability than Kar98K

Did they HAVE a version of the M1 in 1917?

[Maverick]

Bj.

Nope they didn't have Garands in WW1 they almost didn't have them for WW2 as it entered production just about the start of the war for the US. Frankly fishu talks a lot but knows very little about military matters. In WW1 the springfield was the issue rifle for the regular troops. They DID have the BAR in production but to apease the french and their ego the expeditionary force accepterd that HUGE POS (I don't know the spelling but it was pronounced sho sho) the french thought was a light MG. That weapon got plenty of our troops killed because it didn't work.

[Hangtime]

We had the Springfield and the Enfield. Superb bolt action rifles. Both of 'em remained in use clear thru Vietnam.. and to present day. The Germans had the Gewehr98.. also and excellent rifle. The Russians had the Mosin-Nagant.. also a superb rifle. All of them accurate to insane ranges, unheard of by todays battlefield standards. All of these weapons were in front line use and remained the standard issue weapons of all 4 army's. (Springfield, USA, Enfield, Britan Ka98, Germay, Mosin-Nagant, Russia) clear thru WWII. The diffrence at Belleau Woods was the training of the US Marines... the marines were superb marksmen, and they engaged at ranges that astounded the Germans.

German General Ludendorff set the stage during The Great War for the Battle of Belleau Wood when he launched the Chemin des Dames offensive against the Allied Northern Front on May 27, 1918. The Fourth Brigade, American Expeditionary Forces, along with other allied forces moved north on May 20. 2nd Division Marines dug in along a defensive line north of the village of Lucy-Le-Bocage.

When advised to withdraw by a senior French officer retreating with his units down Paris-Metz highway, Marine Captain Lloyd Williams replied, “Retreat, hell! We just got here!”

The front finally settled with the 5th Marines to the west and the 6th Marines to the east. Most units deployed without machine guns, but 2nd Bn, 5th Marines showed the Germans the effects of their superior long distance marksmanship.

On June 6, the Marines make two assaults. The 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment attacks west of Belleau Wood and captures the strategically important Hill 142. Later the same day battalions of the 5th and 6th Marine Regiments assault the woods from the south and west in an effort to capture the town of Bouresches.

The attack against the woods proper goes grimly. Crossing a wheat field where they are exposed to machine gun fire. Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly asks his men, “Come on ya sons-of-*****es, ya want to live forever?” The attack is only able to seize a small corner of the wood.

On June 11 after heavy artillery bombardment, Marines succeed in securing two-thirds of Belleau Wood, again with heavy casualties. Marines hammered their way through the woods until the Germans counterattacked with intense artillery fire and three divisions on June 13, almost retaking Bouresches. The Marines held, again displaying superb marksmanship and incredible determination and on June 14, the German counterattack culminated in failure.



The lines did not change until June 24 when the French command committed sufficient artillery to reduce the woods, allowing the Marines to prepare for a renewed assault. On June 25, after a 14-hour bombardment, the Marines overran the remaining machine gun outposts. After fending off several early morning counterattacks on June 26, Major Maurice Shearer sends the signal, “Woods now entirely U.S. Marine Corps.”

The Marines gained more than a small battered woodland. They stopped the last major German offensive of The Great War. In doing so, the Marine Corps earned the respect and admiration of our country and our allies. The 4th Brigade was awarded the French Citation, A L’Orde de L’Armee, and the wood was officially renamed, “Bois de la Brigade Marie,” in honor of the Marines.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Hangtime
The 4th Brigade was awarded the French Citation, A L’Orde de L’Armee, and the wood was officially renamed, “Bois de la Brigade Marie,” in honor of the Marines.[/i]

I thought it was the "Croix de Guerre"  Maybe that's the same thing but to this day the 4th Marines are authorized to wear it (a green rope over thier left shoulder) for actions their unit did during WWI.

EDIT:

Ok I found it:

The French Government awarded decorations for especially meritorious conduct in action during World War I to 156 American units varying in size from a section to a brigade. These decorations were the Fourragere and the Croix de Guerre with various combinations of palms, gilt, silver, and bronze stars. The unit twice decorated with the Croix de Guerre with Palms was entitled to a braided and knotted cord, called a Fourragere, in the green and red colors of the Croix de Guerre. The Fourragere becomes part of the uniform of the unit so cited and all members of the organization are authorized to wear the decoration on the left shoulder of the uniform as long as they remain members of the organization. According to Larousse's Grand Dictionary of the XIX Century, the Fourragere was originated by the Duke of Alva, a Spanish general. After a unit of Flemish troops had made a rather hasty withdrawal from the battlefield, the Duke ordered "that any further misconduct, on the part of these troops, should be punished by hanging, without regard for rank or grade". The Flemish warriors, determined to reestablish themselves in the good graces of their commander, wore -- as a reminder of their disgrace -- coiled around one shoulder, a rope in the shape of a hangman's noose, at the end of which dangled a long spike. In their next battle the Flemings fought so gallantly and well the noose and spike became a mark of distinction and honor. The French Fourragere is a decoration instituted by Napoleon I for units which distinguished themselves in battle. It was revived during World War I and was awarded by the French Ministry of War to organizations which were cited more than once in the French Orders of the Army. The three classes of the Fourragere are as follows: First -- Legion d'Honneur - Scarlet; Second -- Medaille Militare - Yellow and Red; Third -- Croix de Guerre (with palm) - Green and Red. In 1918, Marines of the Fifth and Sixth Regiments, by their heroic deeds of valor, inscribed the names of momentous and brilliant battles on the pages of Marine Corps history, as well as on their own regimental battle colors. They have the single honor of being the only two regiments in the American Expeditionary Force to receive three citations -- two in the orders of the army and one in the orders of the corps -- the Fourragere and the croix de Guerre with two Palms and one Gilt Star.

[Hangtime]

See rule # 5