Level bombers and dive bombers

[SkyRock]

I agree with you 100% Morph, but I will play devil's advocate for a bit!  
      The first argument would be that if you don't want low flying buffs sinking cv's in the manner you stated, then be sure to send aircraft out ahead of carrier fleet and destroy ord at enemy bases close enough to attack the fleet in this manner.  On the other hand, I think you will still have a guy that flies NOE across 3 sectors to do exactly what you are talking about, just to sink a CV!  
      The second argument would be that as far as historical accuracy goes, there were instances where "suicide" low level bombing raids were attempted by both sides during the war.  (Ball bering plants in Romania-Allies, ship runners-axis JU-88's, and of course the Japanese)  Some of these raids proved to be as stupid as they are in AH2 and some were effective!
     I don't see as big a problem with the low-level suicide buff dweebs, but the diving buff dweebs are pathetic.  No RL vet buff pilot would have agreed to dive bombing as it would have surely meant the loss of his aircraft and the unavilability for safe departure from the craft for his crew due to high G-forces!  It is just simply Stupid tactics.  Hell, there is even a player who got his cpid from this AH bug.... Lancdive!  lol

[Stang]

Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.  I don't understand how people who fly buffs all the time can't figgure it out.  More EZ mode than flying a lala.

[Morpheus]

Go ahead and play whatever roll you want. With the one you're playing under now, you're arguing against better game play.

I think you will still have a guy that flies NOE across 3 sectors to do exactly what you are talking about, just to sink a CV!

Anyone going from 3 sectors back, is most likely going to grab to atleast 10k. If they do so and sink a CV im flying from, more power to them. They did it the right way.

And yes, killing ord does work. But not on maps like we have up now such as FesterMA. Where you have bases so close together that to go from one base back would mean an extra two minutes added on to time to target.

That is a very shallow argument my friend. Because now you're saying that because I didnt kill ord at the base I'm at, and all the surrounding bases,  they should be allowed to slam a formation of B17's into the side of my carrier, or into the ground at my base just after they drop their bombs on an FH. I call that nothing more than BS.  

axis JU-88's,

Which were used extensively as a dive bomber. As part of its design.

B17's where not designed as a dive bomber. Nor were lancs, or B24's ect ect ect. They need to be restricted to dropping bombs only in the manner they were designed. Which is flying level, and from the bomb sight.  


This is a game, what you have now is a large amount of players exploiting features of the game to simply ruin it for others. They know when they die, they get to reup. They know that once they release their bombs doing almost 600mph straight down that those bombs are going to explode, and that they're going to die and do it all over again. So, they keep doing it.

[ygsmilo]

Its about the only thing in this game I don't like,,,, the low level LANCWARRIOR inb to a base at 2k to "level it dude"

Leave the JU88 alone though, its the best dive bomber in the game.

[hubsonfire]

First, I'm entirely in agreement with morph on this. Back in the day, when I was but a lowly toolshedder ( kidding), we'd up our single bombers, form up, determine targets, salvoes, follow up drops, secondary targets, etc, then go in, simultaneously at alt, and pickle off our bombs, usually with good accuracy despite wind, no EZ mode bombsight, and only single bomber payloads. We were still able to flatten entire sectors, make artificial reefs, hunt tanks from 15k, etc. If anything, the more complex system made wingman tactics and communication between multiple bombers en route not just a cool stragety, but a necessity if a base were to be captured, or an offensive ground to a halt.

Nowadays, a vast majority of bombers are under 5K, upped from the absolute closest field, with the max payload, and 25% gas. I do see some bombers at alt, but I can't tell you who they are, as I tend to leave them alone. (if they're going to actually work at bombing, I'm not going to spoil their fun, unless there's a lot of them) However, the norm is a low flight of 26s/17s/lancs roaring in WFO, drop the whole load, BAMBAMBAM dead from either ack, osties, dirtnapping, or in the bombblast. This gameplay feature remains a festering sore in the MA.

Surely HT could fix this without having to completely redo the level bombing system. Perhaps when that tactic finds its way into ToD (and I'm sure it will), he'll find the time to fix it.

I'd like to see the planes that historically divebomb (no, not skip bombing, actual divebombing) allowed to retain this ability, but not in formations- single planes only. I'd dump formations altogether, but that's another story.

BTW Sim, there's no way a 5 ounce bird could carry a 1 pound coconut.

[ghi]

Originally posted by Stang
Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.


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  That's why they used carpet bombing in WW2.
    But  i read about B24s,Ju88s, A234s,B26,B25 were ussed for low alt strikes, I think Lancs were also used for low alt, dam buster, skibombing.
 Since B24s and new accurate bombing were introduced in game , i start loving 109G10, cuz were more bombers than fighters around, now they cool down a bit,
  But like many other dweebs, i do low alt and dive bombing in formations, and i don't feel guilty as long as, is a feature of the game and has historic  backgrounds.
 
 
   

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Go ahead and play whatever roll you want. With the one you're playing under now, you're arguing against better game play.

 

Anyone going from 3 sectors back, is most likely going to grab to atleast 10k. If they do so and sink a CV im flying from, more power to them. They did it the right way.

And yes, killing ord does work. But not on maps like we have up now such as FesterMA. Where you have bases so close together that to go from one base back would mean an extra two minutes added on to time to target.

That is a very shallow argument my friend. Because now you're saying that because I didnt kill ord at the base I'm at, and all the surrounding bases,  they should be allowed to slam a formation of B17's into the side of my carrier, or into the ground at my base just after they drop their bombs on an FH. I call that nothing more than BS.  

 

Which were used extensively as a dive bomber. As part of its design.

B17's where not designed as a dive bomber. Nor were lancs, or B24's ect ect ect. They need to be restricted to dropping bombs only in the manner they were designed. Which is flying level, and from the bomb sight.  


This is a game, what you have now is a large amount of players exploiting features of the game to simply ruin it for others. They know when they die, they get to reup. They know that once they release their bombs doing almost 600mph straight down that those bombs are going to explode, and that they're going to die and do it all over again. So, they keep doing it.

As I said to start out with, I agree with you 100%!

[Tails]

Originally posted by Stang
Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.  

No, no it is not. I was here when it WAS laser guided bombing. Where I could take a Ju-88 with internal bombs only, flying a snake-pattern over an airfield at 20k picking off every strat individually with single bombs.

It is not as easy at it used to be, trust me on that.

I think the switch to full manual in the MA was a mistake, though. It encouraged people to come up with a way to be effective in bombers without dealing with it. Thus, the NOE buff dweebs and the dive bombing dweebs. Unfortunately they have learned that, even with the bombsight toned down a bit, NOE raiding and dive bombing is still faster and more effective than getting up to alt.

But, the advantage is, those that do go up at alt will rarely find enemy fighters waiting.

[nirvana]

Dive bombing has lost it's thrill.  That Lancdive character (hmmm...) can move lancs up and down like they were a lala and then dive them though.  I guess it's how you play.  I only dive bomb CV's and that's only with medium bomber B26's and if they have started turning a lot.

[ghi]

Originally posted by Morpheus
to sink a CV  ..... , .

Imop, is a lot of fun fight, maybe one of the best around CVs,but are too soft, they go down like in AH1, with 8000lbs, but bombing is many times more accurate.

[FBRaptor]

Ya Know, I do not realy disagree with "some" of what this thread has said. But I find it interesting that the thread starter and most avid supporters of this issue, is a group who do not fly bombers....ever!!!! They complain about bomber issues, say it is the easiest thing in the game to do but....they never do it

They make fun of and taunt people who know how to bomb and enjoy capturing bases but they never partake in dropping hangers or buff flying??

They only claim to be interested in "one" aspect of the game, but claim to be educated on "all" aspects. Seems silly realy.

MMM very interesting. Last I heard you guys wanted nothing to do with those toolshedders, so if that IS the case, stop worrying about how they use their tools of destruction.

That being said.......I agree that bombers should not be able do divebomb, however low level drops without using the sights should remain possible.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by ghi

Originally posted by Stang
Ah bombing is almost as accurate as modern day lazer guided bombing.


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    But like many other dweebs, i do low alt and dive bombing in formations, and i don't feel guilty as long as, is a feature of the game and has historic  backgrounds.
 
 
   

Other then the low alt runs. exactly what historic backgrounds do the B17's, Lancasters, B25's have in dive bombing?

I dont think once or twice in the thousands and thousands and thousands missions flown during entire war qualifies as "Historic backgrounds"

B26's I can buy into, A20s I can buy into.
but not the bigboys by a longshot.

BTW typically what I see int he Diving formations is a group of 3 diving in then the driver pulls out so hard he ends up loosing 2 of the 3 of his formation on pullout.

Tell me. What "Historic background" is ther for formations of bombers diving in on a target and willingly and voluntarily  sacrificing 2/3s of their formations on  dive bombing runs?

The only explination Ive seen from the powers that be I personally view as being unacceptable and that being "because they could"

Well for that matter any plane crashing into a target even without bombs should be able to cause damage to that target,Building Ship, etc etc.
Why dont we have tht then. They most certainly "could" and was far far far far less rare of an occurance then dive bombing heavies.

Yet here you can crash directly into a feild ack and it receives not so much as a scratch.

Now Im not argueing that such RL and far more frequent Kamakazi tactics be allowed. But rather that the far far less frequent tactics of dive bombing heavies be dissallowed.

Just because something "could be done" Does not mean it should.
Particularly if it was a very rare occurance.

Now I have a question that some of the guros may be able to answer.

On the heavies. Did they really have the option of only releasing  as few as 1 bomb at a time? Or did they only let go of salvos of several or all at once?
But rather that

[megadud]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Other then the low alt runs. exactly what historic backgrounds do the B17's, Lancasters, B25's have in dive bombing?

I dont think once or twice in the thousands and thousands and thousands missions flown during entire war qualifies as "Historic backgrounds"

B26's I can buy into, A20s I can buy into.
but not the bigboys by a longshot.

BTW typically what I see int he Diving formations is a group of 3 diving in then the driver pulls out so hard he ends up loosing 2 of the 3 of his formation on pullout.

Tell me. What "Historic background" is ther for formations of bombers diving in on a target and willingly and voluntarily  sacrificing 2/3s of their formations on  dive bombing runs?

The only explination Ive seen from the powers that be I personally view as being unacceptable and that being "because they could"

Well for that matter any plane crashing into a target even without bombs should be able to cause damage to that target,Building Ship, etc etc.
Why dont we have tht then. They most certainly "could" and was far far far far less rare of an occurance then dive bombing heavies.

Yet here you can crash directly into a feild ack and it receives not so much as a scratch.

Now Im not argueing that such RL and far more frequent Kamakazi tactics be allowed. But rather that the far far less frequent tactics of dive bombing heavies be dissallowed.

Just because something "could be done" Does not mean it should.
Particularly if it was a very rare occurance.

Now I have a question that some of the guros may be able to answer.

On the heavies. Did they really have the option of only releasing  as few as 1 bomb at a time? Or did they only let go of salvos of several or all at once?
But rather that

couldn't have said it better myself. I really couldn't have because i would have ran out of patience. I was just going to put "what an idiot" but your was better...

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Darkish
Fond memories of manual calibration, wind, no drones etc .... there used to be an art to it.

Used to bomb back then sometimes. It was a challenge to get some cover and fly high in a single bomber, actually hit your target and rtb with a couple kills, shot up and out of tailgun ammo.  

[SuperDud]

Originally posted by FBRaptor
Ya Know, I do not realy disagree with "some" of what this thread has said. But I find it interesting that the thread starter and most avid supporters of this issue, is a group who do not fly bombers....ever!!!! They complain about bomber issues, say it is the easiest thing in the game to do but....they never do it

They make fun of and taunt people who know how to bomb and enjoy capturing bases but they never partake in dropping hangers or buff flying??

They only claim to be interested in "one" aspect of the game, but claim to be educated on "all" aspects. Seems silly realy.

MMM very interesting. Last I heard you guys wanted nothing to do with those toolshedders, so if that IS the case, stop worrying about how they use their tools of destruction.

That being said.......I agree that bombers should not be able do divebomb, however low level drops without using the sights should remain possible.

How do you know we never do it? How do you know we've never done this in the past? I use to bomb all the time. I use to do base capture. But it quickly lost it's magic and became easy and unchallenging so I moved onto fighters. Many in my squad have been playing for many years. You don't think they know how to bomb? When you've been playing for as long as most of them, you are experienced in all aspects of the game. Just because we don't do it doesn't mean we can't. It's a preference, heck I know a few use to be MAWs . And I have nothing but respect for the guys that do it right such as Plumbit, 999, tater(I could name more), I just can't stand the guys to lazy to even learn to do it properly.

And it concerns us when the "toolshedding"(you said it, not me) P51s come screaming in and release their bombs right before they bite it taking out the FH's. It also concerns us when the lancstuka comes in for it's suicide dive on the CV. I'm not really trying to start a purse fight with you Rap, but you assume a lot by thinking my squad knows nothing about bombing and base capture.

Oh and Raptor, thx for not disappointing me. I knew when I typed this earlier someone would make it true....

Originally posted by SuperDud
I know the this will inevatably be a "BK whine" but I've felt this way since I started playing AH....