Author Topic: Democrats Want to Lose another war (Read 3401 times)

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2005, 04:10:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
you forgot this one:

E. Democrat

Taints the other choices for me. Especially considering the man has a military background. He is basically calling for surrender, a retreat from the battlefield.

F. Why don't you go over there, if you're so damned supportive?

J_A_B · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2005, 04:46:29 PM »

"Or if you study Sun Tzu, we lost before we started by not knowing our enemy, ( know thy enemy and thyself ) draggin the war out, (war must be quick), and finally dividing our resources for a second theatre before we had the manpower to do such.. (the latter being the exact opposite of traditional war doctrine for the last 3000 years..)* "

I guess we lost WW2 as well, since we didn't know our enemies very well, it dragged out, and was a multi-front war. Oh...wait a minute...we won that one. Maybe that Sun Tzu guy isn't as smart as people think he was, despite having a mysterious "cool" name.

As with Vietnam, this current "war" is ours to lose, and the only way we'll lose is if the america-hating defeatists manage to convince congress to wuss out. Patton once said that "the very idea of losing is hateful to Americans". It's a good thing for him that he didn't live to see the pathetic, soft, wimpy baby-boom generation which followed. I think that's why they're so touchy about the whole subject of war....they know, deep down, that history will remember them as a generation of crybaby wimps.

Some people say that it "can't" be won. So what then....are we supposed to just sit around and accept people detonating bombs and killing our populace? The wussy defeatists make me sick...they want to ban guns, yet let our enemies kill our people with no repercussion. It's true...these people really do hate America, and probably themselves too.

I'm not going to bring up the names of specific political parties as some others have done. Defeatism isn't linked to a specific party. Jeannette Rankin--the famous activist wuss woman who voted against WW1 and WW2--was elected to Congress as a Republican.

Iraq may or may not have been the "correct" place to attack. The publicly stated reasons were certainly BS. However, it seems that our enemies are so busy fighting us in Iraq that they have little to no additional resources to devote to attacking us here in the continental US.

You like history? A country that doesn't have the will to fight is doomed. Look at what happened to the Roman Empire when they lost the stomach to fight and pulled back their legions....the barbarians closed in until the Goths were at the gates of Rome. The Byzantine Empire lasted for a thousand years; it wouldn't have lasted a century if they didn't have the will to fight. Fighting abroad is what keeps you safe at home.

One thing remains constant throughout the years--your enemies won't simply go away if you ignore them. That didn't work in elementary school, and it sure as heck doesn't work on the global scene.

J_A_B

Furious · « **Reply #17 on:** November 17, 2005, 05:36:24 PM »

wait...

...I thought we were told the war was over.

AWMac · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2005, 06:01:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Red Tail 444
F. Why don't you go over there, if you're so damned supportive?

Trying to get over there now under Halliburton/KBR, IT Communications.

OBTW I'm retired Army, did my 20.

Care to come with me and then talk chit?

Mac

oboe · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2005, 06:54:25 PM »

There is definitely something behind all this. The guy was a Marine for 37 years, and known as one of the most hawkish Democrats. Man, if we could only get the rest of the story...

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Seldom overtly political, Murtha uncharacteristically responded to Vice President Dick Cheney's comments this week that Democrats were spouting "one of the most dishonest and reprehensible charges" about the Bush administration's use of intelligence before the war.

"I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done," Murtha said.

Referring to Bush, Murtha added, "I resent the fact, on Veterans Day, he criticized Democrats for criticizing them."

Murtha once worked closely with the vice president when Cheney was defense secretary. During Vietnam, Bush served stateside in the National Guard while Cheney's five deferments kept him out of the service entirely.

With a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, Murtha retired from the Marine Corps reserves as a colonel in 1990 after 37 years as a Marine, only a few years longer than he's been in Congress. Elected in 1974, Murtha has become known as an authority on national security whose advice was sought out by Republican and Democratic administrations alike.

Murtha's shift from an early war backer to a critic advocating withdrawal reflects plummeting public support for a war that has cost more than $200 billion and led to the deaths of more than 2,000 U.S. troops.

Known as a friend and champion of officers at the Pentagon and in the war zone, it is widely believed in Congress that Murtha often speaks for those in uniform and could be echoing what U.S. commanders in the field and in the Pentagon are saying privately about the conflict.

Murtha, who normally shuns the spotlight, said he was spoke out because he has grown increasingly troubled by the war and has a constitutional and moral obligation to speak for the troops.

I didn't know Cheney got 5 deferments that kept him out of uniform entirely.

Yeager · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2005, 07:00:47 PM »

F. Why don't you go over there, if you're so damned supportive?
====
I wish I could. I would love to serve in theater with the armed forces.

As it is Im doing my part right now on the home front directly supporting the men and women of the United States Air Force AWACS, who in turn are doing their part for all the armed forces engaged in battle on the ground. They are all doing a remarkable job. In that sense I am performing an important duty and I am proud of it.

Thanks.

Eden · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2005, 07:24:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Silat
Actually Ill raise you 2 Vets who think the war is going badly to your 1.

Eden we are there now and we should finish what we started in the best outcome possible. So far any military man who disagreed with the way admin was planning the war was sent packing.
But the issue is whether this admin cherry picked the intelligence and presented it to Congress to get support. This must be addressed. If true then those that did this must be prosecuted. This is the American way.

HEre is an intelligence number: 3500. The number of innocents killed the day the war started (if you want to declare a 4th generation war... it actually goes back further). It is easy to be cynical. Easy to be critical without offering solutions. I don't care about whether or not there were WMD...I care about those in my neighborhood....those in my family. I am selfish...I want them to live safely. WMD are too tricky to realy mean anything (the media makes them the Voodoo doll of the war... the bogey man of a civilized nation...how often are they used?). There are more "real" threats than that. I will assist and applaud every effort (military or otherwise) that takes the fight out of my back yard.

Also, the majority of the soldiers in my 132 man unit that have volunteer to go again. It is not an easy mission...was not claimed to be one. It is however necessary (most agree..but all agree if we are picked to go we all go together). Clauswitz based his theory on the idea that war was inevitable. I agree (for the sake of argument) and if so better to pick the time and place rather than let the other side do so. Even if we could have known more about the enemy (we can argue this forever) the advantage of picking the where and when offers an advantage.

JAB is on the mark...

Quote

Iraq may or may not have been the "correct" place to attack. The publicly stated reasons were certainly BS. However, it seems that our enemies are so busy fighting us in Iraq that they have little to no additional resources to devote to attacking us here in the continental US.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2005, 07:35:57 PM »

Makes me wonder...

Do you think that the democratic party threatened Murtha if he did not come out against the war?

Bodhi · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2005, 07:38:48 PM »

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Originally posted by DoctorYO
The war was lost @ Abu Gharib.. this is 4th generation warfare, we lost a long time ago when we started torturing the general populace with little regard to law or order... attempting to fight a 4th gen war thru 2nd generation means..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=A+Warning+from+Clausewitz&btnG=Google+Search

Or if you study Sun Tzu, we lost before we started by not knowing our enemy, ( know thy enemy and thyself ) draggin the war out, (war must be quick), and finally dividing our resources for a second theatre before we had the manpower to do such.. (the latter being the exact opposite of traditional war doctrine for the last 3000 years..)*

honorable mention goes to disbanding the Iraqi army..(use your enemies resources) blocking our so called allies out of reconstruction (france, gemany, russia, spain, even Britain etc..) hence alienating them. Use of WP in hypocritical fashion in Falluja, and getting caught for it.. (I dont know which is worse, I'd say getting caught..just like getting caught in torture sessions etc.. war is war, getting caught is incompetence)*

*(hundreds more but these are the biggies..)

"Yes its the democrats.. they lost the war.. "

History will say differently Yeager taking bets at 50 -1 odds...

throw down some coinage, ill take your money..

DoctorYo

You live in such a fantasy world...

Yeager · « **Reply #24 on:** November 17, 2005, 08:16:19 PM »

If folks think Murtha is acting out on his own, out of his own sense of humanity, then folks dont understand politics 101. Murtha is working in a tightly controlled campaign with the elders of the democratic party to take political advantage of the deteriorating support for the war. This dishonest campaign has been growing more intense for several months and it is reaching a melting point.

I dont question the congressman personally. He is a decorated veteran who served with honor and distinction and deserves praise and respect for his wartime sacrifice, but the bottom line persists, today he is a politician.

He is a politican in a minority party who is sowing the seeds of dissent to try and place themselves back into power. They will take advantage of any weakening in public support of the war to unseat the majority party. The democrats will lose a war if thats what it takes to regain power.

He is a politician who just sold his brothers in arms down the drain by recommending they retreat from a battle.

Its a sham(e) really.

Dago · « **Reply #25 on:** November 17, 2005, 08:23:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furious
wait...

...I thought we were told the war was over.

Let me be the one to help you, and I am happy to help.

Nobody, and I repeat nobody said the war was over.

What was said was, "major combat operations are over".

And they are, and have been. Major combat operations are over, and if you are any student of history whatsoever, you will understand that concept. There really are no major battles happening, just limited operations to root out insurgents hiding in houses.

If you can't understand the differance, I can't help you since you would be lacking the ability or understanding of history to recognize the differance.

dago

Nashwan · « **Reply #26 on:** November 17, 2005, 09:14:44 PM »

Pulling out of Iraq now would be almost as stupid as invading there in the first place.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan created much of the jihad movement, who went on from their victory in Afghanistan to other targets. Iraq has created a new generation, and they will not quietly retire if they win in Iraq.

The problem is, it's not clear that staying in Iraq will lead to victory anyway, and postponing the inevitable might make things worse, not better.

Yeager · « **Reply #27 on:** November 17, 2005, 10:44:24 PM »

I have got to admit when USSR failed in Afganistan I was deep down disappointed. Even back then I had a gut feel that Jihad was the devil.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 17, 2005, 11:22:22 PM »

Yeager, I wasn't saying that Murtha was playing politics.

I was saying that the Democratic Leaders were playing politics against him. I.E. They threatened / Extorted him into saying that.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #29 on:** November 17, 2005, 11:46:24 PM »

I don't think he's being used. I think it's more of a case of DeJaVu
Friday, May 7, 2004

Before the likes of Nash and company come in here and say we are bad people for bashing a vet I will just say this: I disagree with this guys politics imensly. I do not think cutting and running is that answer at all. Other than that I wont degrade the man.