Democrats Want to Lose another war

[oboe]

That link is interesting, GS, but if you read the story you get quite a different impression.

"We cannot prevail in this war as it is going today," Murtha said yesterday at a news conference with House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi. Murtha said the incidents of prisoner abuse in Iraq were a symptom of a problem in which U.S. troops in Iraq are undermanned, inadequately equipped and poorly trained.

"We either have to mobilize or we have to get out," Murtha said, adding that he supported increasing U.S. troop strength rather than pulling out.

At the time he was roundly criticised by then Majority Leader Tom Delay, a former pest control business owner who never served in the armed services and is currently under criminal investigation for money laundering.   GOP Rep Michael Burgess, a former obstetrician who likewise never served a day in uniform, accused Murtha of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy".

The GOP sure seems to have its share of loudmouthed warhawks who themselves never made the sacrifice.   It'd be interesting to see how many of them own Halliburton stock.

Regarding Murtha's proposal, it strikes me as almost reckless.   A phased withdrawal according to a flexible timetable makes more sense to me-- to put pressure on the Iraqis to step up and take over while we still have a sizeable contigent present in case they are needed.   But its nice to see someone with his credentials put a full immediate withdrawal out there for discussion.   I think there must be alot left unsaid regarding how he came to that position.

[Shifty]

Originally posted by oboe
  I think there must be alot left unsaid regarding how he came to that position.

One reason may be because now Bush is fighting back about the reasons for going to war. Reminding dems of thier own quotes , and votes about the war in Iraq. So now they have to change tactics. Or it  could have more to do  with him wanting to get his face in front  of the cameras. Bash the administration and your an instant media star.

Lee Harvey Oswald was also a Marine that bashed a president, and his policies. Remember that before you cream your pants in glee Terry.

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Eden
Just remember....if we don't clean this mess up know... our kids will have to for us.  Cannot give one inch of ground.  Rep John Murtha likens it to Vietnam (and claims it is worst... a matter of debate) but the comaprison is ill placed.  Different conflict, different stakes.. the only thing that seems the same is the unpopularity.

Please, before criticizing a former war veteran colonel, could you state your qualifications?  
I think when people who have obvious real world life and death experience and can relate the current war directlu with a past war that he has experienced, we should at least take his thoughts as a serious piece of advice because of those qualificatiojns, not dismiss them due to the party he belongs to.  
  So your plan is stay in iraq until ??????  What????   Thats the point , there is no plan.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Please, before criticizing a former war veteran colonel, could you state your qualifications?  
 

That's some standard.

What qualifications do you have that makes you side with this old bird, rather than the current military commanders who say we can and will win the war?

[Scootter]

War, as short as it was, is and has been over, the operations we are seeing every day are against outsiders and former regime loyalist with the full support of the legally elected government of Iraq.

IT IS NOT A WAR.... IT IS OPERATIONS AGAINST TERRORISTS WITH THE FULL HELP AND SUPPORT OF THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ.    

Perhaps we should ask the Iraqis how they would feel about us pulling up stakes now and leaving.

The fanatics realize the highs stakes here, and it shows in there attempts to drive us out, as doing so would allow them to replace Afghanistan with Iraqi as a place to control via Islamic fundamentalism and that is where OBL was and is still training for operations against the world.

To allow this would be beyond wrong, pulling out the troops now, as good as you may feel for the short term would be devastating for Iraqi.

I realize that quitting now and the support of the end of operations would/does make the President look bad and for many that is ALL that counts... please rethink this it to the logical end.

If the Pull out Party gets its way now and wins the White House they will have to deal with a Terrorist nation that they will have created. The next President will be standing on larger piles of rubble and waist then the WTC.


Stop and think past your hate for this president (gone in 3) what will come if you get your way and we were to pull out in the next 3 weeks.

What will Iraq look like in two years.... Do you even care?

Or is the motto   "What ever makes Bush look bad is good" above all logic.


My ramblings

[Masherbrum]

I trust a Democrat as much as I trust a Republican.  They're both liars.

Karaya

[Eden]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Please, before criticizing a former war veteran colonel, could you state your qualifications?  
I think when people who have obvious real world life and death experience and can relate the current war directlu with a past war that he has experienced, we should at least take his thoughts as a serious piece of advice because of those qualificatiojns, not dismiss them due to the party he belongs to.  
  So your plan is stay in iraq until ??????  What????   Thats the point , there is no plan.

Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom,  WTC relief and clean up, Bridge and Tunnel Security....  

The Colonel is a decorated war veteran and for that I salute him.  I respect his opinion and have not attacked it as lacking in validity.  My point is that we need to be resolute in this.  There is a lot more at stake than we sometimes wish to admit.  There is no exit strategy because the war is not in Iraq... it is global.  Do you know anyone who died or was injured on 9/11?  Maybe not...thank god.  Will you know anyone who is injured or killed during the next terrorist attack...Let us hope not but we will all be affected by it.  Try and take a nail clipper on an Airplane and tell me you are not involved in this.  I guess my point is that there is room for discussion (freedom of speech always to be defeneded) but that also means that what you say publicly is also is free to be criticized.  We love our freedoms and they are at risk.  
I understand where the COL is coming from.  He is trying to stick up for the soldiers by bringing to view their situaiton.  His demands are what we would all like to do (if the world was a simpler place).  It is just that we are not at that point yet.

[Shifty]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Please, before criticizing a former war veteran colonel, could you state your qualifications?  
I think when people who have obvious real world life and death experience and can relate the current war directlu with a past war that he has experienced, we should at least take his thoughts as a serious piece of advice because of those qualificatiojns, not dismiss them due to the party he belongs to.  
  So your plan is stay in iraq until ??????  What????   Thats the point , there is no plan.

Nobody needs to state qualifications. If this man is so qualified , he of all people should know that remarks like this coming from the leadership of this country just makes the enemy more resolute.  He should also care more about the Soldiers, and Marines , on the ground in Iraq. Statements like his just lead to more vigorous attacks agianst American servicemen.  Kill a few more Americans and they'll quit. What a messege to send to the AQ. Yeah this guys a real hero, and really cares about the Marines in uniform now.

 There is a plan  it's called Victory.   Thats always been the plan. Time tables, and schedules, are the work of media, and liberals, who want America to lose  the war just because they have been losing elections.

[oboe]

Originally posted by Shifty
One reason may be because now Bush is fighting back about the reasons for going to war. Reminding dems of thier own quotes , and votes about the war in Iraq. So now they have to change tactics. Or it  could have more to do  with him wanting to get his face in front  of the cameras. Bash the administration and your an instant media star.

Lee Harvey Oswald was also a Marine that bashed a president, and his policies. Remember that before you cream your pants in glee Terry.

Could be.   But some of Bush's talking points in his fighting back are simply distortions of the truth.  For example, he claims that those who voted for the war had the same intelligence he had.   I understand that is just not true - Bush as president had access to far more intel than Congress did, and filtered what they had access to.

As far as Murtha being a publicity seeker - well his 30 years of low profile public service in Congress would seem to contradict that theory.   And for him being part of a well-oiled political organization involved in a tightly controlled campaign - well, let me just remind you he his a Democrat.  They would have trouble deciding how to cut butter with a hot knife.

I see no reason to smear Murtha's reputation by comparing him to Lee Harvey Oswald.   And any effort you could make to forgo ridiculing me personally in your posts would be appreciated.   I know you are a better man than that.   We can disagree and still respect each other, yes?

Finally, I'm not sure anybody here has even agreed with Murtha that the troops should be immediately withdrawn.

[Eden]

Originally posted by Shifty
Nobody needs to state qualifications. If this man is so qualified , he of all people should know that remarks like this coming from the leadership of this country just makes the enemy more resolute.  He should also care more about the Soldiers, and Marines , on the ground in Iraq. Statements like his just lead to more vigorous attacks agianst American servicemen.  Kill a few more Americans and they'll quit. What a messege to send to the AQ. Yeah this guys a real hero, and really cares about the Marines in uniform now.

 There is a plan  it's called Victory.   Thats always been the plan. Time tables, and schedules, are the work of media, and liberals, who want America to lose  the war just because they have been losing elections.

Excellent point Shifty,  Living in a civilized world with the goal of peaceful existence with a respect for others is the only qualifications needed...Being aware of history and remembering what living in America once meant and what it means now is reason enough.  Wanting what is best for our kids is reason enough to challenge any statements whether they came from a decorated soldier or not.

[oboe]

Simple question.   Do you guys agree with Scootter's statement?

Originally posted by Scootter
IT IS NOT A WAR.... IT IS OPERATIONS AGAINST TERRORISTS WITH THE FULL HELP AND SUPPORT OF THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ.    

[midnight Target]

1. Murtha said it could be done in 6 months.
2. If it is wrong to disagree with the actions of the administration, which country exactly do you want America to become?

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by oboe
That link is interesting, GS, but if you read the story you get quite a different impression.

At the time he was roundly criticised by then Majority Leader Tom Delay, a former pest control business owner who never served in the armed services and is currently under criminal investigation for money laundering.   GOP Rep Michael Burgess, a former obstetrician who likewise never served a day in uniform, accused Murtha of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy".

The GOP sure seems to have its share of loudmouthed warhawks who themselves never made the sacrifice.   It'd be interesting to see how many of them own Halliburton stock.

Regarding Murtha's proposal, it strikes me as almost reckless.   A phased withdrawal according to a flexible timetable makes more sense to me-- to put pressure on the Iraqis to step up and take over while we still have a sizeable contigent present in case they are needed.   But its nice to see someone with his credentials put a full immediate withdrawal out there for discussion.   I think there must be alot left unsaid regarding how he came to that position.

I'm all for a plan, I just don't think it needs to be voted on in congress nore made public.

and again before you liberals here go un-hinged there isn't anyone here (worth mentioning) that's saying martha is a traitor or a bad person at that.  Most of us (including me) respect him but disagree with his politics.  THat being said back to topic.

I completely agree with you oboe, it does seem reckless.  About as reckless as a stated time table as well.  We broke it, we stay the course and fix it.

I can't stand this comparision to Veitnam.  This war in of itself is completly different.  This is an occupation not a limited armed conflict.  Even the casualty count isn't nearly as bad.  Pulling out now would definatly be a win for the terrorists and I don't just mean that as a GOP talking point, I truely beleive that.

[DoctorYO]

You live in such a fantasy world...

Point taken...  but at least im not a hypocrite.  you or any of your chest thumping squad get them reup papers like I asked you for about 2 years ago..

I rest my case..
 


DoctorYo


PS  :  the only fantasy going on is that you think people are going to fight this cluster of a war for chest thumpers like yourself..  and to do such under false pretenses   (every war is fought under false pretenses so thats not the issue at least for me, the real issue is how you implement that war once your in it, and we've fumbled since Abu Gharib..  Just like Mr Lind said we would back in 2003, fighting 4th generation as 2nd generation, a losing proposition)

[Eagler]

Deleted.

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