doughnut

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

These frustrations stem out of the dicotomy of the Fighter Pilots and Win the War folks.  And 99% of the time the Win The War folks are reducing the fights for the Fighter Pilots and not the other way around.

Donut has given the Fighter Pilots a small morsel of hope and with uncapturable bases would end this frustration or at least minimize it's affects.

I have to agree with mars on this. It's a fact that ALOT of 'Win the War" land-grab types are people who basically 'flunked-out' of fighters. They tried fighters, they got their arses handed to 'em, they found they lacked the patience, aptitude, dedication, etc. to compete on a level that made it fun. They then switch to a different mind-set, they may still fly fighters but they only do so with 3k of ordnance strapped to their bellies and they pretty much disregard air to air combat in favor of building destruction objectives based on 'Winning the War'. While on the surface this appears harmless but the problem is, as we saw at FT this week, they really actually honestly RESENT people who enjoy air to air combat for its own sake and do not actively participate in the winning of the war. What makes matters worse is this antipathy the land-grabbers have toward fighter jocks is not confined to the enemy, they resent their OWN fighter jocks on their team.

The opposite is NOT true. Fighter jocks do not innately resent land-grab types. They only resent them when they do soemthing that actively ruins their fun, which they do on a regular basis. The land-grab types ruin the fun for fighter jocks on THEIR OWN TEAM as well as the enemy.

I have never not once seen or heard of a guy who was very good in fighters say, "Well, enough of this fightering, I'm going to hang-up my wings and pork stuff from now on". The fact is most land-grab types have a real disdain for fighter jocks. They go out of their way, even when unecessary to achieve their goals to ruin it for fighter jocks. This is the problem. I know HTC doesn't like hard-coding solutions to player based problems but this is one area that needs some. Donut map, due to its unique qualities is the most fun map in the rotation for fighter jocks, therefore it creates the most angst from land-grabbers. A bone-headed, no imagination solution to this angst would be removing this otherwise great map. But, why, when you could just solve the problem, do whatever you have to do to prevent the land-grabbing/Win The War types from ruining FT.

Zazen

[mars01]

You have this notion that good fighters/pilots must TnB. The fact is, and I know this may shock you, a good pilot is one who flies whichever plane he is in as close to its maximum potential as his talent, skill, abilities and tactical context allow.

WRONG!!

Everyone knows Good Pilots are Pitts drivers!


OH and RV Drivers!

[AKFokerFoder+]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I did not vulch you,  I could care less about my score, take a look at it, it's pretty obvious.

Zazen

From the information that you gave, I think the average reader is able to tell a vulch from your name change of the situation to "Cherry Pick.”

What we are talking about here is ethics.   And your ethics are such that you will admittedly take advantage of a player who is at a gross disadvantage in a game play situation.  

Originally posted by Zazen13

I never cherry someone engaged by more than 2 people. This is my rule of thumb.

If there's 2 there's room for you.
If there's 3 let them be.

You have already stated that (at least according to you) the difference between a “vulch”and a “Cherry Pick” is that if the bogey has it’s wheels on the ground it is a vulch. If the wheels are off the ground then it is a cherry pick.

So, by your own definition then, it is then OK to bounce a bogey who has just taken off once his wheels leave the runway. You have plainly stated this in earlier posts.

So from that we could deduce that your thin line between Cherry Picking and Gang Banging would be that 3 people on a single bogey is a ethical fight, and it is OK for you to blind side the bogey with a high speed pass.
   
However, 4 people on a single bogey is unethical (by your admitted standards)

I think that it is unsportsman like to engage a person who is already engaged.  But I never hesitate to jump into a 20 to 1 gang bang if I feel like it.  Normally jumping into a gang bang is just a waste  of E, and that would be the only reason I wouldn't help gang bang someone

Now understand one thing here zazen, I think you are a great player, and a really decent person. Really, I have played for and against you, and either way is fun.

But your personal code of ethics seems very fuzzy, illogical and rather high handed.

I wish you could understand that you are really looking poor here.  And I don’t think you are a pontifical south end of a horse, I just think your reasoning is way out of whack.

Think about it.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
I don't really care about your accounts and shades.  I was just making a point.  I know your Zazen account is your cherry picking account.

As for the above, I like to be in situations where it is 3 or 4 vs 1.  The action is sizzleing fast,  your SA is taxed to the extream and you better be good to get even one or two befor they get you.  And if you do everything right you might even kill em all and that is a feeling no amount of playing it safe can achieve!:aok

The only time this style of play sucs is when you have to fly a sector or more to get there.

That's not fun to me, when that happens it's a waste of time. You think if you swirl your spitty around and snap-shot a couple of guys before you die as some great success or some proof of manhood? You are in a Spit, you are in its perfect situation, just against too many foes as is going to happen in the MA when you get low n' slow, you are supposed to be able to translate whatever E you have into angles and get a kill or two before you die in that situation, it's not hard and certainly no proof of some 'elite' status or hero quality.

Personally, I find negotiating the various strata of a furball, keeping flexible with my wits about me and my SA on the prowl far more interesting. Surgically killing 5 or 6 while rarely dying because my tactics were sound is far more entertaining than getting into a yank n' bank fest with too many foes who have no problems pulling for Ho's every chance they get. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Zazen

[mars01]

It's a fact that ALOT of 'Win the War" land-grab types are people who basically 'flunked-out' of fighters. They tried fighters, they got their arses handed to 'em, they found they lacked the patience, aptitude, dedication, etc. to compete on a level that made it fun.

This might be the case for some, but I think there is a valid joy to winning the war and it is a good aspect of the game if you can mitigate it's affects on the guys that just want to fight.

I have never not once seen or heard of a guy who was very good in fighters say, "Well, enough of this fightering, I'm going to hang-up my wings and pork stuff from now on".

When I could get enough of the fighting aspect of the game, I do like to go back and do the land grab.  It is a nice change of pace and a different game.  The problem is it has been so hard to fill my jones to fight that I don't land grab.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

 When I could get enough of the fighting aspect of the game, I do like to go back and do the land grab.  It is a nice change of pace and a different game.  The problem is it has been so hard to fill my jones to fight that I don't land grab.

Yea, I wasn't referring to people who will tote a bomb or three on occassion for something different to do. I was saying noone who is good in air to air combat one day decides he isn't going to do air to air combat anymore but instead egg outhouses. This is contrast to the failed fighter pilots who do this exclusively.

Zazen

[mars01]

You think if you swirl your spitty around and snap-shot a couple of guys before you die as some great success or some proof of manhood?

Dude if you are putting the words in peoples mouths then it doesn't count.  I never said anything of the sort.

Yes I do think it takes much more skill to fly at a disadvantage and win than the way you fly.  So we will always disagree till you come down and mix it up with the rest of us.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Dude if you are putting the words in peoples mouths then it doesn't count.  I never said anything of the sort.

Yes I do think it takes much more skill to fly at a disadvantage and win than the way you fly.  So we will always disagree till you come down and mix it up with the rest of us.

I actually don't think it does take more skill. All you are doing is flying a plane that is in the top 3 in the set at turning in a situation that is perfect for it. Once in a while you are bound to get lucky and kill 3 or 4, sometimes you kill none and they kill you, I've seen it happen to you many times. Really, we are doing the same thing in different ways, you are flying your Spit in situations best suited to its characteristics just as I do with my E fighters.

In my Hurricane I can quite easily dodge 2 or 3 guys in less manueverable planes pretty much indefinately, eventually I will get a snap-shot opportunity on an overshoot or seduce one into over-committing his energy, the others will give up or offer more snap-shots, in a very manueverable plane that's easy, that's what they are good at. When you guys start stall-fighting on the deck in Jug40's, Typhoons and Fw190a8's/d9's and winning against the same 3 or 4 at a 'disadvantage' rather than FM2's and Spits I'll be duly impressed and agree that that took more skill than what I do.

Zazen

[Morpheus]

lol look at you try and justify it all. For piece of mind? Or for self image?

[Morpheus]

A radio transaction from Zazen after he flew through a furball at mach 3.

Radio trans.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+


What we are talking about here is ethics.   And your ethics are such that you will admittedly take advantage of a player who is at a gross disadvantage in a game play situation.  



You have already stated that (at least according to you) the difference between a “vulch”and a “Cherry Pick” is that if the bogey has it’s wheels on the ground it is a vulch. If the wheels are off the ground then it is a cherry pick.

I never once in a million years said I do not shoot down people who have, for whatever reason put themselves in a situation of gross disadvantage. I do, constantly, obsessively with vigor and enthusiasm. It's bound to make them wiser in the future and therefore better opponents. All I have ever said is I do not, under ANY circumstances, vulch people. Once they become airborne if I happen to be in their vicinity, which is an exceedingly rare occurrence by the way, they are fair game. This is all just my personal rules of engagement. I do not expect anyone to take my personal rules of engagement and adopt them, if they do fine if they don't, well, "Frankly Scarlett I don't give a DAMN!".

I think pure vulching (wheels down), makes real fights less frequent, that is why I personally choose not to do it. If more chose not to do it, there would be alot more real fights. Sure, those fights would inevitably have the defenders at some kind of disadvantage, but base defenders are upping knowing this and are flying a plane-type suited to that situation most likely. All fights are going to have one plane/side or another in a some kind of disadvantage to another, the happenstance of purely even, Co-E, Co-alt , same plane fights is one of the most rare occurrences in the MA. It's even more rare than an Lgay7 driver that doesn't immediately go for the HO.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Morpheus
A radio transaction from Zazen after he flew through a furball at mach 3.

Radio trans.

Hehe Cute Morph.

Zazen

[Morpheus]

And after he bounces one at mach 3...

Radio Trans

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Morpheus
And after he bounces one at mach 3...

Radio Trans

I'll be sending you a bill for my new keyboard, you just ruined this one with spit coffee.

Zazen

[AKFokerFoder+]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I never once in a million years said I do not shoot down people who have, for whatever reason put themselves in a situation of gross disadvantage. I do, constantly, obsessively with vigor and enthusiasm.

That obviously includes people who have deliberately put themselves at a gross disadvantage by upping at a field that is being vulched.  

Like it or not by your own admissions you are a Vulcher

Originally posted by Zazen13
It's bound to make them wiser in the future and therefore better opponents.

Yes they will have learned not to up at an airfield that is being Cherry Picked by Zazen

Originally posted by Zazen13
All I have ever said is I do not, under ANY circumstances, vulch people.

The fact that you keep saying you don’t vulch people, doesn’t mean you don’t vulch people, you just nit pick a definition to try and make yourself look better than you really are.

Originally posted by Zazen13
Once they become airborne if I happen to be in their vicinity, which is an exceedingly rare occurrence by the way, they are fair game.

One could now start to wonder what you definition of “rare” is. You have a habit of using different definitions than the rest of us.

You are by your own admission a player who preys on the weak; looks for players who are at severe disadvantage to cherry pick them, even if they are just taking off from a base. You gang bang, and you deliberately avoid knife fights or other low percentage situations.

You are identical to me, except that I will shoot you with your wheels still on the runway, and not wait the 10 seconds it takes for your wheels to leave the runway.  In my understanding of the world there is little difference between hitting a guy who just starting to roll, who is rolling, or who just got his wheels up, or has been flying for about 15 seconds, or even who has been flying for a couple of minutes but can’t get alt or speed due to having to avoid vulchers.  I call any of those and anytime I am hitting defenders at a field a vulch.  And so would most people.

The fact that I am vulching defenders who chose to up at the field at a disadvantage does not somehow make my actions honorable, or fair.  I have no honor, I am a deranged psychopath.

But I am honest enough to call myself what I am, rather than act like a scumbag, and then get on the BBS with a bunch of BS trying to justify my actions.