Unperk the Spit14, Ta152H and the F4U-C and the F4U-4!

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Grits
I dont know why you always bring up the date of the Spits, its irrelevant Kev. The only thing to consider in the perk/unperk calculation is its relative performance and hence its useage rate in the MA. If the LW had ignored Hitler and pressed on with the 262 and got it into service the year and a bit earlier they could have, it would still be perked. The date of the planes use means nothing.

Comparing any other aircraft in-game to a 262 is assenine.

Dates - Well considering this whole perk whine is for what is basically a 1943 performing Spit LF IX, it's ridiculous.

Dates - Also easy to say when both the LW and US planeset has 60% of it's planes in the 1944/45 era.

Dates - I wonder if the Spit 1 suddenly saw as much usage people would be crying for it to be perked,,, I DOUBT IT. You'd all be laughing at how many kills you were getting.

How about -
1) Unperk the XIV
2) Add the Spit XII
3) Add the 'old' V back as an clipped LF Vc (at 16lbs)
4) Add the F.21 (perked) as the ultimate wartime Spit.

Would definately see a decrease in XVI's then, WITHOUT having to perk it.
Diversity will fix the problem, all you'll do by perking the XVI is force people to the VIII.
(Waiting for the 'not more Spits' whines)

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by storch
I agree.  perhaps the arena would benefit from all late war rides being perked.  the 1944 rides under ten points, the 1945 rides more. the jet, rocket and tempest highly perked.

I made a suggestion a while back I still like

Have the planes perked in teirs.

Early planes 1939-41 free

Midwar planes 1942-43 moderatly perked (2-10 perks)

Latewar planes. 1944-45  More heavily perked (11-50 perks)

Jets.  VERY Heavy perks (100+ perks)

Another thing I'd like to see is the to have the ability of sharing your perk points with your squadmates. But ONLY among squadmates.

[simshell]

Originally posted by bozon
I really don't like the direction AH is moving. My only hope is that TOD or another MA will save it.

What people cry for and get, is more and more. Later, faster, bigger guns and we end up with MA common planeset representing the last weeks of WWII. BLAH!

We have 1939 planes with max speed close to the stall speed of 1945 planes.
We have 2/3 of the planeset competative in the Hangar Queen pageant.
We have perk points and nothing to spend them on.
We have ENY values that apart from blobking usage on a severe population imbalance are meaninngless (see perks).

Is it time to create a second areana? where the Mosquito is actually a fast ride, bombers are more effective than JABOs at destroying stuff, 190s are formidable fighters, C202 can duke it out with spit V and P40s are not laughed at. Maybe even the stuka will see some use when its carring capacity is appreciated.
And no, this is not the CT which is too limiting for too many people.

Bozon

im all for this

[Grits]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Comparing any other aircraft in-game to a 262 is assenine.

So is your argument that the Spit XVI should not even be considered for a perk because its essentially a '43 performing plane. If you were not so blind in your jihad you would see that my example is merely taking your operational date arguement to its logical conclusion. The Spit XVI will or will not be perked because of its usage/performance not because of what date the RAF used it, just as a 262 regardless of how early the LW might have gotten it operational would still be perked.

Dates - Well considering this whole perk whine is for what is basically a 1943 performing Spit LF IX, it's ridiculous.[/b]

The performance of the XVI is what it is, date of operation is irrelevant. Planes are not perked based on date.

Dates - Also easy to say when both the LW and US planeset has 60% of it's planes in the 1944/45 era.[/b]

Unlike you I dont have an agenda, even though I am an American, I could not care less what country a plane comes from, I like them all including the Spits.

How about -
1) Unperk the XIV
2) Add the Spit XII
3) Add the 'old' V back as an clipped LF Vc (at 16lbs)
4) Add the F.21 (perked) as the ultimate wartime Spit.

Would definately see a decrease in XVI's then, WITHOUT having to perk it.
Diversity will fix the problem, all you'll do by perking the XVI is force people to the VIII.
(Waiting for the 'not more Spits' whines) [/B]

I dont want the XVI perked, as you know I have said unperk everything but the Temp, 262 and 163. I am merely pointing out that you need to find a better argument that "its a '43 performing plane". And no, I dont think we need more Spits.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by bozon
I really don't like the direction AH is moving. My only hope is that TOD or another MA will save it.

Honestly. I've been kinda thinking the same thing as of late.
The way things have been going the fun factor has definately been starting to dwindle for me. And for a variety of reasons within the game. I've for the first time in 10 years of online gameplay considered quitting on numerous occasions.
And if you spoke to anyone that knows me RL they would tell you that me, and the word "quit" or "give up", Just dont go together, on anything.
I hang in there because I truely do love and care for and about the game.
But it is getting ever more frustrating the direction it seems to be heading

I'd like to think or hope TOD will make a difference but I cant honestly say I have any real confidance in it.
The way LW planes are headed with IMO performance either dwindleing or its the allied planes seemingly more souped up these days  makeing the LW planes performance seem like its dwindling and the inability to see well enough out of them. How many are going to be willing to play on the axis side?

I only see it going the same way Axis vrs Allies went in Airwarrior with the allies having the vast majority of the players and their vastly better rides from fighters to bombers and the axis having mediocre planeset.

IT only works from a game perspective if there is balance. I just dont see how, with the way the planes are going now they are going to acheive that.

I hate to be the pessimist. but thats just the way I see it

[Kev367th]

Grits - OK then show me a category where it outperforms EVERY other plane in the planeset?

Certainly NOT -
The fastest (is it even in top ten? just over 400mph @ 22k, I can think of at least 8 free ones that are faster)
The best turner (prob not in top ten?)
The best roller (prob in top 5)
The best climber (prob in top 5)
The best armed (any twin Hispano better)

Planes are not perked on date - Find me one other that is not a 1944/45 performing bird that is perked?
Later war, later date = better performance, of course most are perked on performance and hence by date.

[Glasses]

I think the Ta 152 should remain a perk,once they give it a reason for it to remain perked, if it's not going to be fixed and  HTC feels the laughing stock of a perfofmance it has is enough, then I think it should be freed up and made into a non Perk. Despite the fact it wasn't as numerous,since  even  the N1K2 had almost about the same number made and it's an unperked ride .

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Kev367th
.

Although the thought of dogfighting XVI's in Pizzas canyons makes me drool.

I alwasy liked pizza cause if offered a variety of options. from good desperate GV fights over  the GV bases to furballing

 The only few things I woujld have changed about it are.
Its color. becuase that seemed to bother alot of people
The way countries were laid out. Should have been one country for each slice of the pie instead of the country on the bottom getting the giant (in my then 6 year old daughters discription) "noodle".

And last but not least there shoulda been some airfeilds in those deep canyons.

Always had a blast dogfighting  in them

[Kev367th]

You mean that the N1K seen about the same combat service as 60-70 Ta-152's?

I always thought there were way more N1K's saw combat service. I know about 428 N1K2's were made.

[edit] Just found this -
“Between October 1944 and February 1945 when production ended, Focke-Wulf managed to roll 67 completed Ta 152 aircraft (H-0, H-1, and C-1 models) off the line but these fighters put on a disappointing show. Some aircraft were lost to engine fires while a variety of other engine problems and spares shortages grounded most of the fleet. By April 30, 1945, only two Ta 152C-1s remained operational. The Luftwaffe had grounded all H-models--an ignominious end for combat aircraft with great potential.”

So basically your comparison to the N1K2 is not valid, on production alone the Ta-152 is 6-7 times rarer.

[Grits]

LOL...Kev, I dont want the XVI perked, I'm just saying its date of operation is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Kev367th
Grits - OK then show me a category where it outperforms EVERY other plane in the planeset?

Certainly NOT -
The fastest (in top ten? just over 400mph @ 22k, I can think of at least 8 free ones that are faster)
The best turner (in top ten?)
The best roller (prob in top 5)
The best climber (prob in top 5)
The best armed (any twin Hispano better)

Playing Devil's Advocate since I dont want the XVI perked, let me point out a few thing in your list that make it look like just as good an argument for perking it as not too:

1. Speed, top 10
2. Roll, top 5
3. Turning top 10 (I'd say closer to top 5)
4. Climb, top 5
5 Armed, Hispanos and .50 cals

My question to you is, what other plane is in the top 5-10 in all those areas and is not perked?

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Grits
LOL...Kev, I dont want the XVI perked, I'm just saying its date of operation is irrelevant.



Playing Devil's Advocate since I dont want the XVI perked, let me point out a few thing in your list that make it look like just as good an argument for perking it as not too:

1. Speed, top 10
2. Roll, top 5
3. Turning top 10 (I'd say closer to top 5)
4. Climb, top 5
5 Armed, Hispanos and .50 cals

My question to you is, what other plane is in the top 5-10 in all those areas and is not perked?

Okey dokey
1) Speed not in any particular order - Tiffy, Pony B, Pony D, P47N, 190D9, 109G14, La7, Spit IX, Spit VIII + more I can't off the top of my head think of. Top 10 MAYBE, but I don't think so.
2) Roll - Agreed
3) Turn - Not even in the top 10
4) Climb - Agreed
5) Armed - hispanos, yup good, many swear by their rides 50cals only.

OK it does all of them well, but hardly dominates in any single category or for that matter two or more categories. I would even say it's not even number 1 or 2 in any category.

People fly it because it's ideally suited for the MA's low alt fights, if they were above 25k you'd never see it, it would be Spit IX and if free XIV.
but then you get into would you perk the K4 and P47N in that scenario?

[Grits]

To continue my Devils Advocate role...

Originally posted by Kev367th
Okey dokey
1) Speed not in any particular order - Tiffy, Pony B, Pony D, P47N, 190D9, 109G14, La7 + more I can't off the top of my head think off. Top 10 MAYBE, but I don't think so.

All of which it absolutely dominates in turn, most in climb, and most in roll.

2) Roll - Agreed
3) Turn - Not even in the top 10[/b]

I count 5 better:

Hurri I
Hurri IIC (IID is not a legitimate air to air plane)
Spit I
Zeke 2
Zeke 5

I would rate it tied with the Spit IX and Ki-84. I might have missed some, but what would you list that I didnt?

4) Climb - Agreed
5) Armed - hispanos, yup good, many swear by their rides 50cals only.

OK it does all of them well, but hardly dominates in any single category or for that matter two or more categories. I would even say it's not even number 1 or 2 in any category.[/B]

No other plane can boast the overall performance of the XVI, while it dominates no one catagory, its clearly the best overall.

[Urchin]

Kev.... how does the performance stack up relative to what else is flying?  

I know the Spit 16 is about (read roughly) equal with the Ki-84 in a slow speed stall fight, in my experience.  That puts it in the Top 5 of "common" planes (as in the 1940 planes can probably "out turn" it, but nobody flies them so I'm not counting them)... and I'd rate the Ki-84 as #1 in a sustained slow speed fight.  

Top speed?  How fast is it on the deck, that is all that really matters.  I'm sure it is ~340+, which is good enough for the MA.  

Roll?  Not really that important, honestly.  A decent pilot can negate a "roll advantage" unless it is on the order of a 6-7 second advantage in a 360 roll.

Climb (= Acceleration)... I've heard this guy is good.  I don't have a bunch of experience in it (flew it a couple times in a H2H room), but from what I saw, and from what I've heard this rates up in the top tier for acceleration.

Guns?  Well, once you get a Hizooka, more are kinda like overkill.  It may not have the "best" firepower... but it has more than enough to kill without any problem at all with two Hispanos.  

Now, does that mean anything?  No, not really.  For my money, the La-7 is as good as a Tempest as a fighter, but the La-7 has been free since it was introduced.  So, HTC probably doesn't really care what I think about the planes, and they certainly don't use my opinions as a basis of perking planes.  

I don't know if HTC will perk the Spit 16 or not, but I rather doubt it.  It is a popular plane, and having a fastish Spit can't hurt the popularity of the game, since the Spit is one of the most famous planes of the war.  

I also doubt that HTC will unperk what is perked currently, or follow the equally radical course of perking new planes that are free right now.  I think basically the rationale for that is "Why fix what ain't broke?".  HT has said in the past that they expect players to get burnt out and quit after a year (or maybe it was 2, I'm not sure).  Most of the people who post on this board have been playing for longer than that.  Granted, most of the people who post on this board have more "enthusiasm" for the game than the average player, but that extra enthusiasm can only keep you interested for so long.  The CT has been around as an alternative for the "1945 arena" for years, and it has been deserted for years.  Why?  It has already been stated... people WANT to fly their 1945 planes.  If they don't get to use the 1945 planes, don't play in that sandbox.  HTC has to make the game fun for the lowest common denominator.  1945 planes make the game fun for them.

[Rolex]

Thanks for bringing up perks again, Kweassa. It should be something that is constantly reviewed because 'something' just feels wrong about it. I don't know how else to describe it.

I agree with Morph and like this idea of perking based on time period. Hitech created the 'rolling plane set' idea, so I assume he's willing to consider any option that improves his product.

What about a perk value calculation based on time frame and also actual usage/availability of the aircraft during that time frame, instead of analyzing the flight and armament characteristics of each model.

The time frame (A, B, C) boundries don't need to be calendar year, either.

For example:

All A Frame planes are free.

All B Frame planes are perked 1-10 based on usage/historical availability.

All C Frame planes are perked 11-X based on usage/historical availability.

All C Frame planes are perked X+ based on usage/historical availability.

Would that be a reasonable historical and gameplay solution?

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Grits
To continue my Devils Advocate role...



All of which it absolutely dominates in turn, most in climb, and most in roll.


I count 5 better:

Hurri I
Hurri IIC (IID is not a legitimate air to air plane)
Spit I
Zeke 2
Zeke 5

I would rate it tied with the Spit IX and Ki-84. I might have missed some, but what would you list that I didnt?

No other plane can boast the overall performance of the XVI, while it dominates no one catagory, its clearly the best overall.

Would list -
Spit V
Hurri IID - Maybe not legit air to air but look at its stats, it's used air to air.
Seafire

Probably a couple more floating out there.