Civil liberities at risk.

[B@tfinkV]

well said Rolex.

this is exactly why they nailed that chap on a cross 2000 years ago.

if what he was trying to tell us was true, they wouldnt live the fat cat lives they could under government and control of the common man.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Pei
You dirty liberal democrat amerihater!

I shower daily, voted for bush (twice) and love Mom, apple pie, John Phillip Souza, cheerleaders and the 4th of July.

I am however, guilty; as is every other former citizen (now 'subject') of voting age still breathing of being 'asleep in the voting booth' while our elected judges, legislators and politicans successfully enacted the most signifcant erosions of the rights of Americans in history.

This sorry state of affairs happened on OUR watch, folks. It's our soiled baby, our steaming, stinking turdpile.

It's getting down to hard choices time again.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Hangtime
I shower daily, voted for bush (twice) and love Mom, apple pie, John Phillip Souza, cheerleaders and the 4th of July.

I am however, guilty; as is every other former citizen (now 'subject') of voting age still breathing of being 'asleep in the voting booth' while our elected judges, legislators and politicans successfully enacted the most signifcant erosions of the rights of Americans in history.

This sorry state of affairs happened on OUR watch, folks. It's our soiled baby, our steaming, stinking turdpile.

It's getting down to hard choices time again.

hang
I think you need to change your bong water...
All that resin is making you paranoid again .. LOL

[lazs2]

I agree with both Hang and rolex on this one...  I would rather the bad guys blow up a few blue cities than have our rights trampled.

Like hang says... it is too late for us sheep tho.... If you dont think so...

go to an airport and watch people walking around in their socks and being randomly searched...

How many years ago would you have all said that you wouldn't have put up with that kind of crap?

lazs

[WhiteHawk]

Those of you who are in favor of rewriting the constitution need to gtf out and let the men handle the 'terrorists'.  Go to CUBA.  They have these rules in place and they will keep you nice and safe.

[CavPuke]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Those of you who are in favor of rewriting the constitution need to gtf out and let the men handle the 'terrorists'.  Go to CUBA.  They have these rules in place and they will keep you nice and safe.

Like they did with the embassy and Marine Barracks bombings in Lebanon ? How about the all the kidnappings by IJO in Beruit (to include the CIA Station Chief).  How about the USAF Barracks in Saudia Arabia ?  In all of the above cases we never even figured out who were responsible.  We just let em get away with it, buried our collective heads in the sand, and hope they wouldn't do it again.  You might want to read See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism -- by Robert Baer.  Any one who thinks we're approaching this war on terror in the right manner is dead wrong.

[2Slow]

Hangtime, Whitehawk, Lazs2, Rolex, and Gunslinger get it.

My whole intent of this thread was to spark some conversation and debate.  Not on the specific ingredients that make up the current state of affairs, NSA, DHS, CIA, FBI, etc.

I see a trend.  I also see a shadow falling upon the land.

Ever see the movie "Shadow on the Land" (SOTL) in 1968.  It scared me when I saw it on TV many years after it was made.  Nixon, Chicago, and all the other internal unrest was happening when it was made.

http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=128883
Shadow on the Land - 1968
PLOT DESCRIPTION
America is no longer the home of the free in this futuristic drama. Now the country is ruled by a powerful, tyrant and his henchmen. The story centers on two brave underground rebels who work to usurp the dictator and restore democracy to the beleaguered land. ~ Sandra Brennan, All Movie Guide

There was nothing futuristic about this movie.  If one updated the movie now to current technology, weapons, and stuff I think it would make Syrania look tame.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by CavPuke
Like they did with the embassy and Marine Barracks bombings in Lebanon ? How about the all the kidnappings by IJO in Beruit (to include the CIA Station Chief).  How about the USAF Barracks in Saudia Arabia ?  In all of the above cases we never even figured out who were responsible.  We just let em get away with it, buried our collective heads in the sand, and hope they wouldn't do it again.  You might want to read See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism -- by Robert Baer.  Any one who thinks we're approaching this war on terror in the right manner is dead wrong.

Lost yah. Disconnect.

I was (still am) for an 'Israeli-style' pay back for these kinds of attacks on our people or servicemen overseas. I'm at a loss however as to how this relates to the erosion of our civil rights at home.

Developing a database on americans, their contacts, relationships, business dealings, travel, personal data, purchases, etc by a government of it's citizens is invasion of privacy of the very worst sort and the death knell of a free society..

Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

[Eagler]

please list the "civil liberties" you have "lost" since 911 that has changed your day to day one bit...

I do think the a/p searches are a waste of time as they are conducted today, I am for a more Israeli approach to a/p security which my guess is would have some of you pop like a balloon

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Please don't read too much into this I'm not saying that civil rights ONLY apply....but just FYI you are calling John Adams brain dead, and just to be fair I misquoted him.

�Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.�

Yes I would call John Adams brain dead, he would fit right into present day America.

shamus

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Shamus
Yes I would call John Adams brain dead, he would fit right into present day America.

shamus

To each his own I guess.  IMHO the point he's making is that unchecked liberties to a foul people will result in caos, not freedom.  

With this whole subject I have to say that I realize there is a fine line that we walk here.  In once stance, I don't want me or my family to end up in one of those "blue cities" laz is referring too when the next attack hits.  In other, I can see hang's point about giving the govt, unchecked powers and what most govts usually do with them.  A balance must be struck between liberty and security and that isn't allways easy to do, especially when America's enemys know the rules we play by and use every oppertunitiy to exploit them to their advantage.

[lazs2]

guns... if losing a relative or friend or two in attacks on blue cities is the price I have to pay for smaller government then it is a horrible but worthwhile price.

What freedoms have we lost?   I don't know but I know that I will never fly in a commercial aircraft again unless the absolutely is no other choice.

I used to be able to park a hundred feet from the entrance at sacramento airport and walk up to the gate to greet friends getting off the plane.   When I flew I wasn't made to walk around in my socks and searched...  

The fact that it doesn't bother anyone is enough to make my point about how dangerous the slow taking away of liberty is.

lazs

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Eagler
I am for a more Israeli approach to a/p security which my guess is would have some of you pop like a balloon

In other words, you don't want to fly anymore.

[2Slow]

Originally posted by Eagler
please list the "civil liberties" you have "lost" since 911 that has changed your day to day one bit...

I do think the a/p searches are a waste of time as they are conducted today, I am for a more Israeli approach to a/p security which my guess is would have some of you pop like a balloon

Changed my day to day?  I have noted nothing today.  However, if our discussion here places any of us on a watch list...gets one the 3AM knock on the door...

In case you missed it: "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in guise of fighting a foreign enemy."  James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)
 
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the rights of the people by the gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."  James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

We cannot be short sighted and only look at today.  One must look to the future.  My daughter is 9.  What "rights and civil liberties" will she and her children enjoy?

Assuming that a shadow is falling upon the land,

The list:  All of them.  If any law allows any one to say "In this matter and case, this person's rights are suspended (wink, grin) so that we may..."  then your right is no longer a right.  It is an allowence that may be defered.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
To each his own I guess.  IMHO the point he's making is that unchecked liberties to a foul people will result in caos, not freedom.  

Well you are correct, to each his own.

I have always been more of a Jeffersonian, Adams was a Hamiltonian and they were in favor of a strong central government.

shamus