How high are $$$ now

[lazs2]

exactly guys... but that doesn't suit the socialists who have a vested interest in creating wide spread panic that only "big government" can solve.

I find it disgusting.

lazs

[Skuzzy]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Back in the 50's and 60's the place with the highest concentration of Nobel Laureates and the place to be was Bell Labs.  Put the profit motive behind research and watch it take off.

Back in the 50's and 60's businesses could write-off far more R&D expense than they can now.  When that tax law changed, most businesses cut R&D to the bone.

Of course, it was cut as many businesses were abusing it.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Back in the 50's and 60's businesses could write-off far more R&D expense than they can now.  When that tax law changed, most businesses cut R&D to the bone.

Of course, it was cut as many businesses were abusing it.

They threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Too bad we can't cut the corruption of government by changing tax law.

[beet1e]

Lazs,

There are two things I notice about you throughout this thread.

One is that anyone who does not agree with you more than about 80% is castigated as a "socialist".

The other is that you're always looking for ways to manipulate the current oil crisis in such a way as to justify your quest of using up the world's remaining oil stocks in as short a time as possible.  As Rolex has pointed out, it would be economic suicide to do that.

You also have a propensity to turn these debates into a pissing contest about cars. It's not about cars, it's about fuel.

I don't think there will be a scenario whereby one day we're awash with oil, running gas guzzling cars and trucks, and then suddenly the next day there's no oil at all. I believe oil will peak, as the oil industry experts say (and I don't claim to be one myself) and there will be a gradual process in which the price rises in such a way that all the arguments about what is the right or wrong thing to do in the current climate, as seen in these debates, will be swept aside and new technologies will emerge, driven by the high cost of oil.

When the pump price of gasoline passes the $10 mark and the end of oil is in the public eye, I don't think we'll be seeing people in here demanding cars based on any erstwhile "societal insistence" on what they should have. By then, even BoxBoy will have realised that the price of gas in the US is never going to be $2 again, even with a change of government. In fact the transition is already in progress, with the three best selling passenger cars in the US being relatively fuel efficient Japanese imports - the sort of cars you despise.

As I have said all along, the transition to alternative fuels will be driven by one thing and one thing only. The price of oil.

[bkbandit]

i dont think it could ever reach $10 a gallon. If it reached that high in nyc gas station owners would be hung from traffic lights and the cops would prob be giving us the rope.  Another thing is the performance of cars.  Cars in gerneral are becomein more powerful.  I went to the nyc auto show and alot of cars have 300+ horsepower:aok .  This ethanol stuff is supposed to run without hurtin horse power.  Oil companys noe that there number r up and r goin to try to make all they can aswell as the middle east(OVER PRICEING).  I mean the zo6 corvette has 500 horse and that monster chevy avalanch can run on ethanol so i dont think there should be nothin wrong with it.  Those hydrogen cells are alot to mass produce and the eletric cars lack performance.  Ethanol is just another combustable fuel so it looks like thats the winner(plus us performance guys can use it).  And they got cars out there that can run on it alone or run on a mixture of the 2.  Here in nyc there mixin 10% ethanol in with the regular gas.  I dont noe but since its a combustable fuel u figure that u can just change ur fuel filter or just make some adjustment to ur old rid and just be able to run it on ethanol.  I think we are already producein it here in american and some other country in south american is producein it as well.  We still have some places to drill but alot of those tree hugger organizations wont let us.  Even if they started drillin right now it will take awhile to set up shop.

Somebody get some info about that ethanol stuff.  If it works like its supposed to they can just mass produce the hell out of it.  They got a mustang gt500, hopefully a camaro, hopefully a challenger comin out and i would love to pay a buck and a half for a gallon of ethanol so i can actually go for a sunday drive.

[beet1e]

Bandit - just last week I saw a news item about a racing car (not F1) that ran on oil extracted from wheat! It was no slouch... But these technologies are their infancy. As the oil price rises, they will become more and more worthwhile.

[bkbandit]

Thats amazing.  What ever it is that replaces gas looks like it will keep my camaro on the street.  I guess the alterative that will take over is the one that will be cheapest to produce.  Those hydro and pure electric cars dont do it for me, i mean u cant just junk all of the older cars.  I drive a 86 and i couldnt get a new car if my life depended on it.  I would love to see how that race car performed, wonder if it was better or worst.  They need to do somethin and go it quick so at least by next spring people arent feelin the sting of gas prices.

500 horse power all day long, give it to me with a fuel that costs a buck or a buck and a half gallon. give me another muscle car era.  If u can get a link to that story about that race car i would love to read it.

[lazs2]

beet.... if demand stays low... say everyone conserves and drives crappy little cars and allows their government to enforce more and more regulations...

What do you think the emerging nations are gonna do?   They are gonna buy the oil... If the price is based on demand... everything will work out... conserving is a fools game... oil fired factories and electric plants will take up the slack... china will take up the slack... you can't win the conservation game... there is too much demand.

All about cars?  you are the one who keeps bringing up the non existent 12 mpg flood of U.S. Suv's  I tell you that the cars don't matter..  I say... drive what you want and let demand rule.

Socialist?  well.... by defenition.... if you want a bigger government to solve the problem you are acting like...... a socialist.

rolex wants huge government research (I use research loosely here)  and..... wait for it.... more government schools!!!  LOL... more like we have allready?  

nope.... have a contest with our tax money going to the winner and you will get ten times more results.... if you want smarter people to do the research then throw out the shameful teachers union and give vouchers to parents so they can get decent educations for their children.

I only disagree with you because your solutions are either nonexistent.... worthless... or socialist or all three.

come up with something that makes sense and we will discuss it.

lazs

[beet1e]

Bandit - I found a story about the race - Link (.PDF document) - contains pictures of some of the cars. The driver's name was Fiona Legatte.

Lazs, I don't think it's correct to say that conserving is a fool's game. The higher the demand, the higher will be the price, and that in itself will have the effect of steering people away from 12mpg gas guzzlers. I know I'm right because Storch reported that when he bought the Ford Monster for Mrs. Storch, the dealer had about 60 similar unsold models on his lot. And when the manufacturers realise that the heavy discounting needed to sell such models has eroded their profit margins to the bone, perhaps they'll stop making them and make something else...

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
The higher the demand, the higher will be the price, and that in itself will have the effect of steering people away from 12mpg gas guzzlers. /QUOTE]

What 12mpg gas guzzlers would that be?

[lazs2]

now you are starting to get it beet.  The problem will resolve itself.  If there is no demand.... say... no jet planes or now oil fired electric plants... say a lot of people go the hybrid route.. say we find a huge stash of oil... say free electricity makes hydrogen cars viable... say whatever....

If that happens and demand stays low... price will be low and anyone who likes or wants gassoline powered vehicles will still drive em...

if none of the things happen and demand goes up.... people will just walk into the dealer and buy any number of 30-50 mpg cars available right now and.... more will be built.

conserving (vehicle wise) does nothing on a world scale.

lazs

[Toad]

U.S. gasoline consumption of 320,500,000 gallons per day (March 2005), from the gibson report.

Put a 10 cent a gallon tax on gasoline, throw all the money into an award program. $3,205,000 a day going into the awards. $1,169,825,000 a year. Make it a 5 year tax; ~$6 billion.

Set the required standards up front, the qualifications the winner's solutions will have to satisfy.

Give 33% of the take to the first company to produce a marketable 75% efficient solar power cell.

Give 33% of the take to the first company to produce a workable "bio waste to fuel" process. Something like the Changing World Technologies synfuel plant or Iogen's bacteria that breaks down agricultural waste into sugars that can be made into ethanol.

Give 33% to the first company that can figure out how to produce a barrel of oil from oil shale or coal for a delivered price of $50/barrel.

You'll make a hell of a lot more progress a hell of a lot faster than having the Feds try to do it.

[straffo]

Originally posted by lazs2
Socialist?  well.... by defenition.... if you want a bigger government to solve the problem you are acting like...... a socialist.

Correct by your personnal definition.

But wrong using the usual definition : it's a system where the economic means of production are owned and controlled collectively by the people.


Your definitition is something like socialist = some one who promote a "welfare state".

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
now you are starting to get it beet.  

Cheeky monkey! Whaddya mean, starting to get it? I've been using the Mrs. Storchmobile (and the unsold storchmonsters) as an example in these gas threads for months now. Maybe you're just... *starting* to pay attention? I don't see the world-wide demand for oil "staying low" or even becoming low in the next 20 years. China is going to suck the world dry in that time.

Jackal - I'm not going to type it all out again. Go to http://www.fueleconomy.gov In 2006 models look up Dodge Ram, which is (according to forbes.com) one of the three best selling vehicles in the USA. In 2WD you will see one variant that gets 12 city/15 hwy, and another which gets 9 city/12 hwy. Apparently the Mrs. Storchmobile has been discontinued. Do you think the price of gas might have had something to do with it?

Straffo - the definition of "socialist" has been expanded in the 2006 Oxford Dictionary to include anyone who disagrees with Lazs.

[BigGun]

Beet..how come you often characterize US as country that drives 12mpg cars. Sure some do, most don't. You try to come of saying that most US drive 12mpg cars. Some do out of need. Then on the other hand you have pointed out that top US selling cars are honda and others which get good gas mileage. This implies that US does have large portion of driving public buying fuel efficient cars. Funny how you alwayss use the 12mpg characterization when it fits your need, but disregard the other contradicting statement.

One this is apparent from reading bbs, you never back away from pov, even if wrong. Appears you just like to argue for arguements sake.