Author Topic: How high are $$$ now  (Read 7458 times)

Offline Rolex

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How high are $$$ now
« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2006, 01:54:31 AM »
Hey Toad,
"And then we get Spring again." - Chance from "Being There." Good movie and very apropos for today.

I know that I'm not smart, like lazs, so I understand. You could always run the theory that pushing oil up to $100-$120/bbl quickly will help spur investment past some other folks? Let me know how that works out? ;)

I think I said to you about a year ago that we'd be in for more of same for about a year, then some converging trends would change the outlook. I'm pretty sure I also said that gas would be $2.50+/gal. I'm such a "doom and gloomer."

There you go again, lazs.

You know very little about me, so stop guessing. I live in two countries. Doom and gloom? haha, you're funny. You know more about guns and hot rods than I do. No question about that and I respect your knowledge there.

Everything else? Well, your supreme confidence in your flawed conclusions only means you're ignorant of your own ignorance.

------

Hey there, BigGun. Yup, things are just awful in Japan. Let's take a look, shall we?

Let's say that 3 years ago we both invested $100,000. I invested $100,000 in the Nikkei, and you invested $100,000 in the NYSE.

Today, you would have $155,000.

I would have $222,000.

Here's something else you won't hear about in the US media. The US is no longer the number 1 country for investment for the people with the most money in the world (the global super rich who have the best financial advice in the world and are no dummies). The US is down to #3 and dropping like a rock.

Want to guess what the #1 country is?

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #166 on: April 27, 2006, 04:38:04 AM »
See Rule #2, #5
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 07:04:47 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #167 on: April 27, 2006, 06:21:21 AM »
Rolex, do you think there'd be more investment in finding a reliable source of alternative fuel if the price was $40 a barrel?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #168 on: April 27, 2006, 07:17:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ghi
[BI drove in Europe last summer again, after 7 years , and i was surprised, Is a huge diference comparing with North American roads, all kind of small cars, the parking spots are soo small and fuel more expensive
  [/B]


And they are getting smaller Link
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 07:20:00 AM by Krusher »

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #169 on: April 27, 2006, 07:25:27 AM »
No. Even less than now, Toad. The investment into alternative fuels is miniscule now, compared to my liking.

I understand your point, Toad. And yes, I understand lazs' point, but I think better solutions to the myriad of issues that are involved in just starting a transition in the complete economic and transportation infrastructure are needed than simply hiking up oil prices.

It's regressive, Toad. I don't think the average and below average income family barely making ends meet now should have bear more of the burden. An neither should all the retiring baby boomers on a fixed income. That would just create more misguided animosity and grandstanding by politicians.

Also, it affects everything negatively since everything in our world is on a truck one time or other in its existance - as raw material, component or finished good.

Investment costs money. Investment is borrowed money, from stockholders or banks, and there is a cost for it. If the interest cost of investing becomes too high, it doesn't matter how competitive the final price of the product is. It can exceed any gain from the final prodct. See what I mean?

I'd like to see less inflationary ways of creating incentive than simple across-the-board increases at the pump to reduce the cost of investing over the long haul.

There is a whole basket of things that need to be done beyond synthfuels. Bringing them all together into a comprehensive plan is a massive project because there are other pure transportation of goods issues that need to be included.

Something that really irks me is people like lazs who twist my position into something simple, opposite and extreme. I have said that it is my opinion that we need to start making a concerted effort over the next ten years. Ten years from now will be 2016, so I am hardly being a doom and gloomer if you think about what the cost of oil may be then.

I also believe that those who simply blame oil companies for the price of oil are doing a great disservice to their nation and to the question of what to do, as a whole. They don't understand the market and the factors affecting it, but are just looking for someone to blame.

Oil companies merged, consolidated and accomplished tremendous vertical integration after the 2000 election. They now control almost everything from the pumphead to the gas pump, and each part, operating as separate, but joined elements, take a profit from their added value.

Anyway, I considered starting a mother-of-all oil thread to answer some of FAQs in concise, bite-size pieces, pointing out where there are disagreements, and pointing out where there is concensus - including describing some of those myriad of things that are affected and some of the plans out there that bring them all together. But, I'm afraid it will just degrade into another slugfest of people making uninformed comments. There are some smart and informed people here, but the too vocal, uninformed ones drown them out. ;)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 07:42:42 AM by Rolex »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #170 on: April 27, 2006, 08:42:30 AM »
Ok rolex... I know more about Hot Rods and guns and you know more about japs and investment...

That doesn't make either of us scientists or inventors... although... I would say that maybe gun owners and Hot Rod guys know a little about making things work.

You say I don't know what I am talking about and that history will not repeat and that I have no insight on human nature.  You think human nature is japs and investment... I say both are an aberation.

You are mad because I am not buying into your doom and gloom scenario....fine.... I will grant that things might get tougher before they get better.... I have told you what I think... to leave it alone and not go into a panic based on junk science and let crisis make things happen..

with all your pontificating and superiority complex.... I have heard not ONE solution from you....japan has to import all it's oil...  maybe you are simply afraid your investments will go into the crapper if you don't get Americans to "do something"?

and... back to that.... why are you afraid to say what you want us to do?  Could it be that what you want us to do is to be taxed and punished and to have our government have more and more power?  could it be that you want us to be like some socialist people... like the ants you are around?

I think Ann Coulter has the best take on it.  We can't build refineries because of liberal socialists.... We can't explore for oil or use the oil we know exists because of liberal socialists...we have high tax on gas because of liberal socialists... and you want us to turn the thing over to..... liberal socialists?

Simple question..... what do you want us to do?    

What would you have us do and how much will that help?

lazs

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #171 on: April 27, 2006, 08:50:56 AM »
lol bpwn.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WORRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2006, 10:56:34 AM »
2nd best joke i heard today:

Quote
Going a Short Way to Make a Point
By Dana Milbank
Thursday, April 27, 2006; A02

Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines.

Gas prices have gone above $3 a gallon again, and that means it's time for another round of congressional finger-pointing.

"Since George Bush and Dick Cheney took over as president and vice president, gas prices have doubled!" charged Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), standing at an Exxon station on Capitol Hill where regular unleaded hit $3.10. "They are too cozy with the oil industry."

She then hopped in a waiting Chrysler LHS (18 mpg) -- even though her Senate office was only a block away.

Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) used a Hyundai Elantra to take the one-block journey to and from the gas-station news conference. He posed in front of the fuel prices and gave them a thumbs-down. "Get tough on big oil!" he demanded of the Bush administration.

By comparison, Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.) was a model of conservation. She told a staffer idling in a Jetta to leave without her, then ducked into a sushi restaurant for lunch before making the journey back to work.

At about the same time, House Republicans were meeting in the Capitol for their weekly caucus (Topic A: gas). The House driveway was jammed with cars, many idling, including eight Chevrolet Suburbans (14 mpg).

America may be addicted to oil, as President Bush puts it. But America is in the denial phase of this addiction -- as evidenced by the behavior of its lawmakers. They have proposed all kinds of solutions to high gas prices: taxes on oil companies, domestic oil drilling and releasing petroleum reserves. But they ignore the obvious: that Americans drive too much in too-big cars.

Senators were debating a war spending bill yesterday, but the subject invariably turned to gas prices. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) engaged his deputy, Dick Durbin (Ill.), in a riveting colloquy. "Is the senator aware that the L.A. Times headline reads today, 'Bush's Proposals Viewed as a Drop in the Bucket'?"

"I'm aware of that," Durbin replied.

Sen. Pete Domenici (R-N.M.) responded with an economics lesson. "Oil is worth what people pay for it," he argued.

Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) sounded the alarms. "We are one accident or one terrorist attack away from oil at $100 a barrel!"

Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) made a plea for conservation. "We have to move quickly to increase our fuel efficiency," she urged.

But not too quickly. After lunchtime votes, senators emerged from the Capitol for the drive across the street to their offices.

Sen. John Sununu (R-N.H.) hopped in a GMC Yukon (14 mpg). Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) climbed aboard a Nissan Pathfinder (15). Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) stepped into an eight-cylinder Ford Explorer (14). Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) disappeared into a Lincoln Town Car (17). Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) met up with an idling Chrysler minivan (18).

Next came Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.), greeted by a Ford Explorer XLT. On the Senate floor Tuesday, Menendez had complained that Bush "remains opposed to higher fuel-efficiency standards."

Also waiting: three Suburbans, a Nissan Armada V8, two Cadillacs and a Lexus. The greenest senator was Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), who was picked up by his hybrid Toyota Prius (60 mpg), at quadruple the fuel efficiency of his Indiana counterpart Evan Bayh (D), who was met by a Dodge Durango V8 (14).

As a political matter, Democrats clearly sense that they have the advantage on the high gas prices, judging from the number of speeches and news conferences. "The cost of Republican corruption when it comes to energy is hitting home very clearly for America's middle class," House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) exulted yesterday morning.

Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D-Mich.) introduced an amendment to repeal oil-company tax breaks and distribute $500 tax rebates to consumers. It was quickly ruled out of order.

But Republicans were clearly feeling defensive. "We passed an energy bill last year, last July," House Speaker Dennis Hastert (Ill.) pleaded at a morning news conference. "It changes CAFE [corporate average fuel economy] standards. It changes some of the things that we can do -- I'm sorry, changes not the CAFE standards, but changes some of the supply issues, boutique fuels, all these things."

Only Sen. Mark Dayton (D-Minn.), who can speak freely because he is retiring, was willing to note the disconnect between rhetoric and action. "People say, understandably, 'Solve our energy problems right now, but don't make us do anything differently,' " he said on the Senate floor.

If the politics of gasoline favor Democrats at the moment, the insincerity is universal. A surreptitious look at the cars in the senators-only spots inside and outside the Senate office buildings found an Escort and a Sentra (super-rich Wisconsin Democrat Herb Kohl's spot had a Chevy Lumina), but far more Jaguars, Cadillacs and Lexuses and a fleet of SUVs made by Ford, Honda, BMW and Lexus.

A sampling of senators' and staff cars parked along Delaware Avenue NE found that those displaying Democratic campaign bumper stickers had a somewhat higher average fuel economy (23 mpg) than those displaying GOP stickers (18 mpg). A fuel-efficiency rating could not be found for the 1970s-era Volkswagen "Thing" owned by Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.).

Maybe, lawmakers are starting to learn. When GOP senators had a lunch Tuesday a couple of blocks from the Capitol, many took cars. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) emerged from the lunch looking for his ride when he spied The Washington Post's Shailagh Murray. Reconsidering, he set out on foot. "I need the exercise," he reasoned.


the best joke was by bloodninja

Offline Toad

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« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2006, 05:02:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I'd like to see less inflationary ways of creating incentive than simple across-the-board increases at the pump to reduce the cost of investing over the long haul.

There is a whole basket of things that need to be done beyond synthfuels. Bringing them all together into a comprehensive plan is a massive project because there are other pure transportation of goods issues that need to be included.

 


Ah, but what we'd like to see is essentially immaterial.

What we do see and are going to see is across-the-board increases at the pump in accordance with basic supply and demand.

The idea that somehow, someway a comprehensive plan to address the entire energy problem will be generated by our government is too fanciful for me to even contemplate.

Neither the Bush admin, nor the one after it or even the one after it will be able to come up with any sort of comprehensive, effective plan. The parties will fight and most likely we'll get bandaids at best.

Again, I think Laz is right here. What has the government done in a similar area that actually works well? What comprehensive government plan to address a problem works?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 05:06:27 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Boxboy

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« Reply #174 on: April 27, 2006, 06:53:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
No. Even less than now, Toad. The investment into alternative fuels is miniscule now, compared to my liking.

I understand your point, Toad. And yes, I understand lazs' point, but I think better solutions to the myriad of issues that are involved in just starting a transition in the complete economic and transportation infrastructure are needed than simply hiking up oil prices.

It's regressive, Toad. I don't think the average and below average income family barely making ends meet now should have bear more of the burden. An neither should all the retiring baby boomers on a fixed income. That would just create more misguided animosity and grandstanding by politicians.

Also, it affects everything negatively since everything in our world is on a truck one time or other in its existance - as raw material, component or finished good.

Investment costs money. Investment is borrowed money, from stockholders or banks, and there is a cost for it. If the interest cost of investing becomes too high, it doesn't matter how competitive the final price of the product is. It can exceed any gain from the final prodct. See what I mean?

I'd like to see less inflationary ways of creating incentive than simple across-the-board increases at the pump to reduce the cost of investing over the long haul.

There is a whole basket of things that need to be done beyond synthfuels. Bringing them all together into a comprehensive plan is a massive project because there are other pure transportation of goods issues that need to be included.

Something that really irks me is people like lazs who twist my position into something simple, opposite and extreme. I have said that it is my opinion that we need to start making a concerted effort over the next ten years. Ten years from now will be 2016, so I am hardly being a doom and gloomer if you think about what the cost of oil may be then.

I also believe that those who simply blame oil companies for the price of oil are doing a great disservice to their nation and to the question of what to do, as a whole. They don't understand the market and the factors affecting it, but are just looking for someone to blame.

Oil companies merged, consolidated and accomplished tremendous vertical integration after the 2000 election. They now control almost everything from the pumphead to the gas pump, and each part, operating as separate, but joined elements, take a profit from their added value.

Anyway, I considered starting a mother-of-all oil thread to answer some of FAQs in concise, bite-size pieces, pointing out where there are disagreements, and pointing out where there is concensus - including describing some of those myriad of things that are affected and some of the plans out there that bring them all together. But, I'm afraid it will just degrade into another slugfest of people making uninformed comments. There are some smart and informed people here, but the too vocal, uninformed ones drown them out. ;)


Your problem for me Rolex is that I worked for a Major Oil Company, and so know for a fact that much of your schmoozing of the oil companies is hooey, your position probably comes from the fact they you are heavly invested in same.

When a company calls together its employees and tells them in no uncertain terms that the company serves ONE flag and that flag is the flag of the company doesn't indicate to me they care one whit about the world condition at all just profit.
Sub Lt BigJim
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Offline Rolex

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How high are $$$ now
« Reply #175 on: April 27, 2006, 08:48:39 PM »
NO, not schmoozing, box. Honest. Stay tuned.

Oil reserve "re-stating" had a big effect on prices recently. You are getting this info in the US news, right?

Kuwait's "known reserves" were downgraded by more than 50% and that included "proven and unproven" reserves.

The problem with reserves is that no one really knows. The numbers are all fudged upwards since OPEC oil production is tied to reserves. You can only ship x% of reserves, so everyone has been inflating reserve statistics.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 09:12:55 PM by Rolex »

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #176 on: April 27, 2006, 08:50:38 PM »
Well, I guess we're just doomed then if you have such a low regard for your government. :)

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein

Doing nothing is the problem, not the solution.

The problem I see with the "doing nothing" approach is that profits only increase for the oil industry as prices rise, due to their vertical integration. The oil industry is like Microsoft. Look to that to see the result of doing nothing. They are going to continue doing everything within their power to maintain overwhelming dominance by squashing any competition rather than changing their business to suit the needs of consumers. Alternative fuels research and investment will be like Linux or any other OS trying to compete today - desparate and weak acceptance. Americans are hard-headed and will accept the price rises just as they continue to use Windows.

All the theory about free market forces, supply and demand, go out the window when monopolies or extraordinary dominance is present.

As supplies become tighter from global demand, the traditional approach of military aquisition and security of supply will continue. Iraq was always about securing oil. It was never about Iraqis or terrorism or Saddam Hussein or WMD. We all know that the decision to invade Iraq was made before 9/11, so let's not fool each other about that, okay? You're worldly enough to accept and talk about it, Toad.

It won't be as easy in the future as it was in the past. The great lesson of Iraq is that it didn't work out like planned. $50 billion given to 150 US companies to reconstruct the infrastructure to get the oil flowing into the market, and it didn't get done. Three years gone and the money is gone with still no stable electricity, water, sewage and less oil out than when Saddam was there. Iraqis rebuilt everything after the first war in less than 3 months. They screwed the pooch on the 2nd largest supply in the world, which confirms your point about government incompetence. Or is it just the recent governments incompetence?

The Apollo Program accomplished its stated 10-year goal. All it took was inspirational leadership to set and sell the policy. A successful strategy of how to achieve something is easier when the policy and goal is clear and not devious.

"Policy" and "Strategy to achieve it" are different. Leaders with the ability to form coherent sentences can set a policy and badger or inspire representatives into supporting it by inspiring the people who elect the representatives.

Sweden has a national goal and plan to be oil independent in 20 years using every way of generating power it can find, and creating derivative fuels. Will they get there? I don't know, but it doesn't hurt to look at what they're doing. Take a look at it.

Japan has actually reduced demand for oil over the last 30 years, while building world-beating industries.

The US is neither of these countries, but there are some ideas there that can scale up to at least significantly reduce oil dependence.

Heat, light and transportation.

- At least 40% of all the heat and light should be generated by nuclear power in 25 years.
- At least 30% should be generated by oil-alternative means.

The US no longer has the know-how or number of people to build and operate the facilities, so any high school student with the scholastic ability should be given a 100% scholarship to study Nuclear Engineering, Nuclear Physics and all related engineering disciplines (mechanical, electrical...) No repayment of scholarship if they work in the industry for 5 years.

Free technical-school training for non-professional workers with the same caveats.

Would you support your tax money being used for that? I would hope so. It's child's play for any politician worth his salt to sell that to the American taxpayer and voter, don't you think?

More later. Busy.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 08:57:24 PM by Rolex »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #177 on: April 27, 2006, 08:59:24 PM »
Rolex, what % chance do you think there is of the US Government actually doing any of that in the next 10 years?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Mr Big

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« Reply #178 on: April 27, 2006, 09:09:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex

 Iraq was always about securing oil. It was never about Iraqis or terrorism or Saddam Hussein or WMD. We all know that the decision to invade Iraq was made before 9/11, so let's not fool each other about that, okay?  


What oil have we secured in Iraq since the first gulf war? And at what cost?

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier and less costly to just invade Saudi Arabia and "secure" their oil?

If Iraq had never invaded Kuwait, the US would never be in Iraq today. To say that "everybody knows" the "true" reasons for invading Iraq, is being arrogant and ignorant all at the same time.

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #179 on: April 27, 2006, 09:41:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Rolex, what % chance do you think there is of the US Government actually doing any of that in the next 10 years?


It must be awful to feel so helpless and powerless. All of the life is drained out of you. Cheer up, man! You need a dose of optimism.

Good thing you weren't around in 1776. :)

You've got time on your hands. You just going to barbeque and sit around waiting to die? Go visit your Congressman and Senators. Ask them what they're going to do about it. You're like a bulldog when you make up your mind about something.

Run for Congress.

What the hell are you waiting for? Your next life?