Author Topic: A little poem a friend sent me guys  (Read 2536 times)

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2006, 04:59:05 PM »
How could Hussein �brutalize� his people if they didn�t cowardly allow him to do so? Dictators don�t take power. They�re given power by the people.
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lol, dude I get it.  Im going to take a pass on this one, thanks for the larfs tho :rofl
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2006, 05:04:18 PM »
Yeah, yeah, uv...but history is also replete with examples of rebellions and insurrections that didn't succeed and ended with brutal massacres.  So what's your point?

Rebellion in northernEngland, centered in the area around York, against the rule of William Bastard...was put down in an infamous campaign sometimes called the Scouring of the North.  It took decades for the region to recover it's population.

Hundreds of thousands of rebelling Khwaresmian Turks were massacred in Persia by the Mongols.

A paranoid Stalin murdered tens of millions of people who either rebelled against his rule, or were suspected of plotting rebellion.  The Russian Army lost 36,000 officers in one purge.

Hitler murdered millions in the captive countries of Europe.  

The greatest mass murderer of the twentieth century may have been Mao tse-Dung.

All of these people perpetrated crimes against their own people.  Are to claim that all of these people deserved the rulers they got because they were too cowardly to fight back?

As I said, to state such is to use a base and foolish argument.

Offline uvwpvW

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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2006, 05:32:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Yeah, yeah, uv...but history is also replete with examples of rebellions and insurrections that didn't succeed and ended with brutal massacres.  So what's your point?
 


What part of “willing to die for your freedom” did you not understand? Name one that didn’t succeed eventually. Sooner or later all brutal regimes are overthrown.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Rebellion in northernEngland, centered in the area around York, against the rule of William Bastard...was put down in an infamous campaign sometimes called the Scouring of the North.  It took decades for the region to recover it's population.


The people of York, indeed all the people of England are free from William the Bastard and any other ruling Monarch. The Yorkers rebellion failed, but their descendants won freedom … on their own.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Hundreds of thousands of rebelling Khwaresmian Turks were massacred in Persia by the Mongols.


Again, the Turks seem to be living in a rather democratic and free country now. They won their freedom eventually.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
[BA paranoid Stalin murdered tens of millions of people who either rebelled against his rule, or were suspected of plotting rebellion.  The Russian Army lost 36,000 officers in one purge. [/B]


What happened to the Soviet Union again? Refresh my memory.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Hitler murdered millions in the captive countries of Europe


This is perhaps the best example of a dictator being given power by his people. And supported by the people. The crimes committed by the Nazis are shared by all Germans, and they feel the shame even today.

The Iraqis are hardly any better for what they did and allowed to be done in their name.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
The greatest mass murderer of the twentieth century may have been Mao tse-Dung.


This regime is still in power. How long do you think it will last?


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
All of these people perpetrated crimes against their own people.  Are to claim that all of these people deserved the rulers they got because they were too cowardly to fight back?


You are making my point for me. With the exception of Mao Tse Tung, all those regimes were eventually overthrown.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
As I said, to state such is to use a base and foolish argument.


I think sending our young to die for the freedom of those who do not deserve it is foolish. Criminal even.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 05:34:52 PM by uvwpvW »

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2006, 06:18:39 PM »
Ho-hum...the people of the captive nations of Europe did not "vote" Hitler into power.  Short of intervention by outside powers, it is doubtful that any rebellion would have been successful, given his military might and brutality.

Hitler's regim was brought down by the greatest international coalition of all time.  The young men from the U.S. who fought, did so to protect their country and also to liberate the captive peoples of Europe.  I believe Churchill called it the Great Crusade.  Historians in the U.S. have called it the "Last Good War" because our nation fought for the collective good of mankind.

The Soviet Union's blood-spatterd government was brought down by political and economic pressures applied by the democratic nations of the West...and not by the people themselves.  Yet those people are still captive of Stalin's "I am your savior" propaganda.

Hundreds of thousands of our fellow countrymen died during the Civil War which liberated millions of Black slaves.  Many of them were draftees.  Was that cause noble enough for our young men to die for?  Should we have left the slaves in bondage because they were too cowardly to fight for their freedom?

How long do I think the Communist Regime in China will last?  Given than it has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, quite a long time.  That in no way erases the blood stain from it's history.  Unfortunately, the world did nothing to prevent Mao from shedding the blood of his people.

After all, we are not, really, our brother's keeper...especially if our brother happens to be one of those little yellow people who live half-way around the world.

Hundreds of thousands of Sudanese Christians have been massacred by their government.  The world has done almost nothing.  There is very little support for military intervention.  No attempt has been made, to my knowledge, to even arm these victims of genocide so that they might defend themselves.

Apparently, they are not our brothers either.

Offline uvwpvW

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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2006, 07:37:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Ho-hum...the people of the captive nations of Europe did not "vote" Hitler into power.  Short of intervention by outside powers, it is doubtful that any rebellion would have been successful, given his military might and brutality.


Even so they DID rebel, and fight, and die. If not for the partisans in the east and resistance fighters in the west the war may have been lost.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Hitler's regim was brought down by the greatest international coalition of all time.  The young men from the U.S. who fought, did so to protect their country and also to liberate the captive peoples of Europe.  I believe Churchill called it the Great Crusade.  Historians in the U.S. have called it the "Last Good War" because our nation fought for the collective good of mankind.


Have no illusions why America fought. After waiting two years and having Japan and Germany declare war first, America reluctantly joined the “Last Good War”.

We weren’t fighting a dictator hated by his own people. We were fighting the German People and their dictator.

Very different from Iraq … or so we are led to believe.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
The Soviet Union's blood-spatterd government was brought down by political and economic pressures applied by the democratic nations of the West...and not by the people themselves.  Yet those people are still captive of Stalin's "I am your savior" propaganda.


You claim the laurels of the August Revolution for America and the west?




How shameful of you. You are beneath my contempt.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Hundreds of thousands of our fellow countrymen died during the Civil War which liberated millions of Black slaves.  Many of them were draftees.  Was that cause noble enough for our young men to die for?  Should we have left the slaves in bondage because they were too cowardly to fight for their freedom?


Apples and Oranges. The slaves were not the people of the USA, nor were they in any way numerous enough to successfully rebel. Unlike the Iraqi population. Even so, many blacks did fight and die for their freedom log before the civil war.

What you should have asked: Should another nation have invaded America to free the slaves?

I think you’ll agree that the answer is “no”.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
How long do I think the Communist Regime in China will last?  Given than it has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, quite a long time.  That in no way erases the blood stain from it's history.  Unfortunately, the world did nothing to prevent Mao from shedding the blood of his people.


“The World”. You say it like it’s actually an organizational entity capable of making decisions.

Why should we have shed blood instead of them? They gave power to Mao Tse Tung, not us.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
After all, we are not, really, our brother's keeper...especially if our brother happens to be one of those little yellow people who live half-way around the world.


No they are not “our brothers” if they choose to be ruled by evil dictators. They are responsible for their own government, and by proxy the actions of the government.

Our children will be judged by the actions our government. Be it acclaim, or stigma like present day Germans.


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Hundreds of thousands of Sudanese Christians have been massacred by their government.  The world has done almost nothing.  There is very little support for military intervention.  No attempt has been made, to my knowledge, to even arm these victims of genocide so that they might defend themselves.

Apparently, they are not our brothers either.


No they are not “our brothers”. If you feel otherwise feel free to join their rebellion and fight. I for one do not support sending our youth to die in Africa in their place.

We are not the “World Police”, nor should we be.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2006, 09:55:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Nash = the citizens kipling always wrote about.

Yea, Nash representing.  Some things never change.


It's incredible to me; how thick the irony is of you championing Kipling - the rock star poet of all things Imperialism - in a discussion about Iraq.

We're talking about Iraq, and Kipling's "Tommy" was talking about the British army's involvement during its imperial hold on India.

...... yet,  "Tommy" could just as easily be referring to a "red coat" not in India, but in eighteenth century Virginia! You don't even have to change any of the names.

So what are trying to do here? Hang on, I'll make it effortless for you.

You are equating my dissent with the citizens of India dissenting against Britain's hold on India, which - by proxy -  makes it also a bad thing for Americans to have criticized Britain's imperial hold on the US.

What words would you have expressed to "Tommy" if you ran into one in a Virginian bar, circa 1750? The very same ones Kippling lashes out at in "Tommy," I would hope.

Yet suddenly, it's a bad thing here. Heh.... but go ahead. Compare me to Ghandi all you want. :)

And nice use of art, there. ;)

Best of all, it's priceless that you employ it here regarding the US's occupation of a foreign country. Absolutely fricken hysterical.

My God... the degree that folks like you will go in order to squelch free expression, for the purported aim of freeing people, never ceases to confuse the absolute bejeezious out of me.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2006, 10:09:34 PM »
dude, what is ?up with all the ?question marks?
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2006, 10:24:27 PM »
Nash,

You epitomize the phrase: "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2006, 10:34:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
dude, what is ?up with all the ?question marks?


Not sure what that's about. Every post you've written today has question marks all over the place...... nobody else's does.

Might be some kind of nifty Windows thing.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2006, 10:35:54 PM »
So, since we are NOT the world police...and the U.N is basically doing nothing...we just sit back and watch it happen.  

Got it.

In summation:  Nothing and no one is worth dieing for.  There is no "brotherhood of man."

 The United States and the western democracies had absolutely nothing to do with the breakup of the Soviet Union.

A few corrections to your statements;  The Nat Turner was the only slave revolt in the United States prior to the Civil War...and involved a mere handful of rebels.  Oh, and there were four million slaves in the southern states...fully 40% of the population...more than enough to "fight for their freedom."

The United States' entry into World War II was delayed by a peace movement led by people who thought exactly like you...that nothing that takes place in other countries is important enough for us to shed our blood over.  Not even the massacre of our fellow man.  

Personally, I find hand-wring, do-nothing, pacifists with no apparent compassion for the sufferings of their fellow men to be beneath contempt.

"There is no greater love than this, that a man refuse to lay down his life for his friends."
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 10:38:50 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2006, 10:36:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Nash,

You epitomize the phrase: "I reject your reality and substitute my own".


Is that saying anything?

Reality is the gold standard. It's only our perceptions of it that differ.

I reject your perception of it.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2006, 10:38:37 PM »
Who are you talking to Shuckins?

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2006, 10:40:13 PM »
From what I've seen you reject pretty much anything other than your own ideas and opinions. Which pretty much goes in line with what I posted. earlier. To paraphrase, you reject reality and substitute your own.
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2006, 10:40:40 PM »
Nash,

I'm talking to uvwpvW.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2006, 10:46:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
From what I've seen you reject pretty much anything other than your own ideas and opinions. Which pretty much goes in line with what I posted. earlier. To paraphrase, you reject reality and substitute your own.


Lol... Like I was born into the world with a set of opinions, and I will exit the world with those exact same opinions.

Right.

That sounds like folks like you, quite frankly.

No... I'll roll with the punches instead.

Bad prez, bad war.... and I'll say so.

That's all that's happening here.

By the way, it was you who asked for the Tommy poem. Upon its posting, you said this:

Quote
That's it and thanks. It still applies today. Tommy does see what's going on.


"Tommy" can't see squat.

Because Tommy isn't a person in a poem. "Tommy" is slang for a soldier in the British army during the height of Britain's imperialist reign over much of the world. Much like "Charlie"  or "Haji" is slang.

Does Tommy's perspective "apply today?"

I'm sure it does.

But I'm not so sure that you want to be associating yourself with it.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 12:18:52 AM by Nash »