The terrorists are winning

[Habu]

I see it every day. In this forum, on other forums, in the media and even among people I know. There are many who believe that they US or Israel were behind the 9-11 attacks. And these people actually believe this to be true.

I guess when the facts don't support your point of view of the world you need to change the facts to do so. So they do.

How is it that a religion that is in no way peaceful can be widely held in Western media to be so. But when a blatant terrorist attack is carried out on live TV and the people behind the attack open admit so many times people still do not believe it?

Really it just makes me shake my head. People are like sheep. They want to be believe that the US is evil so badly they will choose to believe the biggest lies told by people who should be laughed at but instead are listened intently to.

[Waffle]

it all started with the PC movement.

[Dago]

Originally posted by Habu
I see it every day. In this forum, on other forums, in the media and even among people I know. There are many who believe that they US or Israel were behind the 9-11 attacks. And these people actually believe this to be true.

I guess when the facts don't support your point of view of the world you need to change the facts to do so. So they do.

How is it that a religion that is in no way peaceful can be widely held in Western media to be so. But when a blatant terrorist attack is carried out on live TV and the people behind the attack open admit so many times people still do not believe it?

Really it just makes me shake my head. People are like sheep. They want to be believe that the US is evil so badly they will choose to believe the biggest lies told by people who should be laughed at but instead are listened intently to.

Sad isn't it?

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Habu
How is it that a religion that is in no way peaceful can be widely held in Western media to be so. But when a blatant terrorist attack is carried out on live TV and the people behind the attack open admit so many times people still do not believe it?

Agreed!  Despite the Oklahoma City bombing, abortion clinic bombings, killing doctors, etc, the media continues to push the same old story.

Well, despite that, I still think they're good people.  The actions of a few radicals don't represent their religion in whole.

[Habu]

Well I guess when the Caliphate happens you will be spared Chairboy.

[Eagler]

as long as leaders in the democratic parts of the globe are elected by people who see the truth, know the truth and share views/morals/beliefs of those they elect, we have a chance
if we are less committed than our enemies or lose sight of this war, we will fail

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Agreed!  Despite the Oklahoma City bombing, abortion clinic bombings, killing doctors, etc, the media continues to push the same old story.

Well, despite that, I still think they're good people.  The actions of a few radicals don't represent their religion in whole.

McVeigh was 1 guy, and there have been a total of 24 people killed in abortion clinic bombings since 1988, none in the past 6 years--most those attributed to a select few. And the media sure as hell doesnt ignore them. I've seen this a lot, and it really isnt a valid comparison

[Neubob]

The actions of radical religious fanatics may not represent the bahavioral patterns of the majority, but they do, in many cases, represent the repressed desires of that same majority. Remember, without the moderates, there would be no radicals, and not the other way around.

[Seagoon]

Hello Chair,

Originally posted by Chairboy
Agreed!  Despite the Oklahoma City bombing, abortion clinic bombings, killing doctors, etc, the media continues to push the same old story.

Well, despite that, I still think they're good people.  The actions of a few radicals don't represent their religion in whole.

Tim McVeigh was a nominal Catholic and there is no evidence that he ever attended church as an adult. He never once claimed to be anything approaching an evangelical Christian and told his biographers Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck that he was an agnostic, here is a quote to that effect from the transcript of their CNN Interview:

"Question from chat room: Does McVeigh have any spiritual-religious beliefs?

Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, "What if there is a heaven and hell?"

He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon -- "adapt, improvise, and overcome." Death to him is all part of the adventure." (from: http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2001/04/04/michelherbeck/)

McVeigh never once indicated that the bombing of the Murrah building had any religious component whatsoever. He also wasn't much of a "Moralist" given that during his trial it became apparent that a good part of his life after the army involved the use and sale of Crystal Meth.

Additionally, he sympathized with Saddam and the Iraqis and espoused many of the same talkingpoints that are now popular in anti-Bush  rhetoric. For instance:

If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges and trials against him and his nation, why do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of "mass destruction" -- like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above? (from: An Essay on Hypocrisy by Timothy McVeigh )

Additionally, the abortion clinic bombings took very few lives, and are now almost entirely a thing of the past and definitely not gathering momentum.

Chair, I know that there is a mindset that desperately wants to believe that there must be some sort of Christian terrorist movement out there because of the caricature that we are all seething with murderous hatred and rage, but the fact is that evangelicals are more often on the receiving than the throwing end of the stones precisely because we do make people so very, very, angry.

So why not just detest us because we are all so ignorant and narrow minded and uptight and uncool - isn't that enough? Why is there a need to invent other justifications for disliking Christians? When I loathed Christians with a passion, I had my own justifications for doing so, which I though sufficient, but I never loathed them because I thought they were violent or likely to engage in terrorist activities. I recall thinking they were far too wimpy and useless for that kind of thing.  

- SEAGOON

[Chairboy]

Nah, I just think these generalizations are silly.  All blacks are not lazy, all gays are not pansies, and all islamics are not bloodthirsty maniacs.

It's funny how it feels when y'all are on the receiving end instead of dishing it out.  That's a constant across the entire human condition.

[StSanta]

I recall thinking they were far too wimpy and useless for that kind of thing.  

- SEAGOON

I have the benefit of having history to refer to. Christians have in the past, particularly before the Reformation, been prone to being powerhungry, torture, abductions, murder and disappearances.

Nowadays in my country at least, they're rather meek, forgiving and tolerant. I like this about the Christians here - they seem content to practise their faith without unduly messing around in the secular world, although as of late we've seen increasing political activism by state paid and sponsored priests.

This I disagree with. While I recognize faith and action go hand in hand, using faith as a force on what is contemporary, short lived political matters is an abuse of authority. Priests should be above that, because their faith and message is.

Since that I pay church taxes (we have a state run church here), I do have a ríght to voice my opposition to such matters.

But anyway, my point is that although Christianity overall is beneficial to the Danish society as a whole in its current form, I can see that there are possibilites that it will transform into something malevolent. Right now I kinda support it and its charities but if it starts meddling in my affairs as a secular humanist, our goals no longer match and I must act according to my beliefs as a humanist.

[1K3]

Originally posted by Habu
I see it every day. In this forum, on other forums, in the media and even among people I know. There are many who believe that they US or Israel were behind the 9-11 attacks. And these people actually believe this to be true.

You just gotta wake up that US dug themeselves in deeep hole by invading Iraq.  

The Afghan war was supported by everyone in the world however the Iraqi sequel was terrible.  Like most movies a sequel tend to do poorly in theaters.

[lukster]

The terrorists hope to rally all of Islam against the west. That would be failure for them as it would be the end of Islam. Their faliure to rally Islam as they hope is the most success they can attain as it means more of the same which is really their only effective action.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by StSanta
I have the benefit of having history to refer to. Christians have in the past, particularly before the Reformation, been prone to being powerhungry, torture, abductions, murder and disappearances.

Nowadays in my country at least, they're rather meek, forgiving and tolerant. I like this about the Christians here - they seem content to practise their faith without unduly messing around in the secular world, although as of late we've seen increasing political activism by state paid and sponsored priests.

This I disagree with. While I recognize faith and action go hand in hand, using faith as a force on what is contemporary, short lived political matters is an abuse of authority. Priests should be above that, because their faith and message is.

Since that I pay church taxes (we have a state run church here), I do have a ríght to voice my opposition to such matters.

But anyway, my point is that although Christianity overall is beneficial to the Danish society as a whole in its current form, I can see that there are possibilites that it will transform into something malevolent. Right now I kinda support it and its charities but if it starts meddling in my affairs as a secular humanist, our goals no longer match and I must act according to my beliefs as a humanist.

So..you have to go back centuries to find stuff to criticise Christians about, and thus create moral relativism for the untold thousands of Muslim terrorists who are killing untold thousands of people TODAY.

What do you suppose would happen to someone who defamed Muhammad? Hmm..you probably already have an idea of that. As for Christ..the cartoon Southpark has Him as a game show host, and the University of Virgina TAX payer-funded school newspaper showed this :

The August 23rd edition showed a drawing of Jesus crucified on a mathematical graph with the inscription, "Christ on a Cartesian Coordinate Plane." On August 24, the newspaper ran a cartoon of Mary and Joseph, with Mary holding baby Jesus. "Mary…I don't mean to ruin this special moment," Joseph says, "but how did you get that bumpy rash?" To which Mary says, "I swear, it was Immaculately Transmitted."

Hmm...no riots, no bombings...but a DAStardly letter. Those Christian right-wingrs never know when to stop.

[Ikeprof]

I'm actually not going to even remotely claim to guess as to "who" did anything, however I do believe that the information that we have been given is absolutely not correct in terms of the physics aspects of the collapses of WTC Towers 1,2 and 7...especially 7.

Though it will avail nothing, I served 6 years in the military, have 2 sons in the Navy and regardless of how patriotic I am, I am absolutely allowed the right to examine any evidence and make up my own mind as to whether I am being told the truth or not. It is my opinion that "that" right to do so is not only a right, it is a duty as given us as part of our citizenship.

My gut instinct on watching the original "day of the event" footage was one of "you have to be kidding me/no way that happened".  I think that my gut reaction was based upon being a history channel/national geographic addict and simply devouring hours upon hours of "how it was made" type documentaries.

I am not a licensed engineer, but I do know enough about physics and engineering to know that the stories we have been told in terms of the "official explanation" are hogwash.  That does not mean I know anything more about what really happened, but when I cannot trust the sanctioned story, then it is natural that my suspicions be raised to some degree.  


I am aware that to even question anything, to be a voice that expresses even a moments hesitation in accepting the spoon fed version of the facts of an event is in todays atmosphere is less than patriotic to the point of being considered traitorous.  That my friends is what concerns me the most.  Questioning should never be considered evil.  If you do consider it that, then you in essence handily discard one of the freedoms that distinguishes this country from most others.  

I am not an expert on much of anything, but it is articles written by engineering professors and the like that I think that an open minded person should examine, if nothing more than to do the due diligence that we all have the duty to do.  
 
I was originally going to post links to the various physics and engineering papers written on this topic, but to be honest, the resulting arguments of the various points of the papers would be more effort than it's worth.  I really have no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I simply have an interest in maybe performing a tiny nudge in the interests of not being blind in the name of patriotism.  There have been too many postings on this board that slam those that do not come to the exact same conclusions as others.   Give them a moment of credit towards their intelligence.  Just because I saw a show that said that Kurt Cobain influenced the radical arm of islam and my pug puppy to pilot planes into the towers and the resulting puppy bark shattered the 47 core support columns into 30 ft lengths does not mean that I believe it...that is the beauty of our country, the ability to examine ALL evidence and come to our own conclusions, regardless of whether those conclusions match the official story.  Those that would quiet the right of someone to express their thoughts are more guilty of being unpatriotic in my opinion than those who would express the worst possible opinions as to what happened and who was involved.

In the end, if one comes to the exact same conclusions after examination of other explanations then good..that means that your gut feelings coincided with physics and known facts.  However, physics don't often lie.  

Regardless of how/what happened, it is a tragedy when any event of this magnitude occurs and god bless those that perished in this tragedy.