Author Topic: Someone help me understand.....  (Read 5886 times)

Offline hubsonfire

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Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2006, 08:48:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by smash

 It seems there are a lot  of really vocal people who really only want to see this thing as an air to air combat sim.  A little back and forth is good, if nothing else to understand better what you are thinking.


 I don't care if it's vehicles, air to ground, ground to air, air to air, whatever, as long as there is a good fight. What we have most of the time is a lopsided fight, or no fight at all. This kind of gameplay takes the "combat" out of "aerial combat".
mook
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storch

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Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2006, 10:23:56 PM »
hey dan I want to thank you for the title of this thread.  it reminded me of paul mccartney's sappy song "baby I'm amazed"  it's been playing in my head for two or three days.  I had just gotten it out, by replacing it with another sappy song eddie money's "I wanna go back" when I heard it on XM a few minutes ago so it's back in there again.

:D

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2006, 11:16:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
OK - I'm a landgrabber, and for the record, yes, I'd like for my country to win the war every single time.  Why you may ask?  Is it the amazing 20 whole perk points, or the new map we get to see?  No - it is just more interesting to me to get a coordinated attack going and fly with my buds than it is to up an uber plane, fight 1 vs 1, rinse, and repeat ad nauseam.

By my take on this thread, one question seems to be: why do you bother taking undefended land?  To which I respond, well why the hell don't you up and defend your land?  Having been on the defense myself quite a bit, I know that there are a variety of ways for a smaller force to frustrate the attackers and ruin their day - goon hunting, troop porking, etc.  In the midst of that you might even get some good A to A battles.

Another complaint is that it is too difficult to stop the 15K jabos diving through the defenders and getting to target.  OK - having been a jabo whose job it is to get through the defense and get my bombs on target, I shouldn't be expected to sit there like a pidgeon so you can have fun.  Get up to 20K and dive down on me and maybe you'll stop me.  I will grant you this - the radar ranges are too short to make an effective intercept by the time you see the attackers on radar.  I have made postings to this effect and have suggested HT increase the base and CV radar ranges so that it would be easier for the defense to get up and intercept, and I have also suggested large strat radars covering a large area.

Another complaint seems to be about "hordes" attacking.  Lets face it - squaddies usually like to fly together, so if they all are attacking a single target you are going to have a horde.  The best battles I've seen on this game are the horde of attackers vs the horde of defenders, so if you like A to A, then join in the horde and have at it.  If you don't have a horde, then most likely the perk point cost of a Tempest/262/Spit XIV/F4U4 (insert arena uber ride here) is going to be real low for you, so up one of those and have fun that way.

I would submit for the good of the game as a whole, the game should be oriented more towards hordes and landgrabbing / base capture / strat destruction.  Why you may ask?  Put yourself in the role of a complete newbie coming into the game - you can get up OK, but then what?  Are you more likely to have fun, be successful and want to come back and play more when you are part of an organized force trying to accomplish a specific objective? Are you more likely to meet folks you want to fly with that way?  

Do you think a newbie has more fun upping on his own, flying off, and getting shot down alone again and again by pilots that have hundreds and thousands of kills under their belts? (and then getting taunted by some prepubescent egomaniac on channel 200 afterwards?)  I don't think so.  

Thats my $.02 worth.

EagleDNY


My 2 cents in return.

You want to win the war every single time.  That in itself says something.  What do you win?  You get to go back to the beginning and do it over.   And against as little opposition as you can find.  Again what's the point.

You mention newbies.  At one time or another the air to air advocates were newbies too and got their backsides handed to them over and over and over again.  After ten years of online flight sims I still get it handed to me.  The challenge becomes to get it handed to me less.

If you never challenge yourself to get better, and hide in a horde working the path of least resistance, again what's the point?  

People keep pointing to hanging with their buddies.  What do you think the air to air guys do?  Often times their buddies are the guys they've flown against again and again.  There is a mutual respect based on the competition, not the lack therof.

My old AW squad was built from guys who got to know each other by meeting over the rivers and fighting each other.  next thing you know we had a bunch of fairly good 38 drivers and we decided to form up and fly together once a week.  Every other day of the week we were having at it and often shot each other down.

Again if there is no challenge, then all you really want is a flying chatroom, which is fine I guess, but maybe we neet HTC to give us the old AW style OCs for folks to sit and chat in.  That was fun too at times.

And lets be clear on something.  I agree that when mobs meet it's fun.  But many folks avoid those fights with their horde and go after the field that has no one there.  By the time the defenders can get moving, the VH is down, the field acks are dead as well as manned ack and if they up they get vulched.  Not much of a way to defend.

But again, the answer I seem to be getting is 'we like to hang with our buddies and have fun, joking around".  "We like to win the war".  "Why would we attack a defended field when it's easier to take an undefended one."  And what you seem to have added which is  "It would take to long to get any good at air combat, so I'll hang with the horde where I can feel protected and feel a sense of accomplishment without working at it."

Did I miss anything?
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline hubsonfire

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Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #93 on: September 30, 2006, 12:04:20 AM »
No, Gruppy, you haven't missed a thing.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2006, 12:07:43 AM by hubsonfire »
mook
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Offline thndregg

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Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #94 on: September 30, 2006, 12:04:55 AM »
:rolleyes: (sigh!)

Here we go.....again.




Years of this now.......(puke!)

"This is the Song That Doesn't End..."
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #95 on: September 30, 2006, 01:36:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
But again, the answer I seem to be getting is... "


Not to sound like a smart-aXX, Dan, but you did say you were looking for an answer.  Doesn't sound like one that makes sense to you or that you agree with, but it is a series of answers.  I wish I could come up with something that would satisfy you, but I'm out of ideas.  

How 'bout you talk about what you would do with a mob, or any ideas you have for cultivating a mob on mob fight.  I saw your map idea, and it looks great, so I know you've got some ideas.  

I'll say again that I think if the survival of the goon was a realistic possibility, folks could have more success taking an opposed base.  How could we accomplish that?  Because, personally, I see that as the hinge pin for success taking a defended base...

Offline nopoop

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« Reply #96 on: September 30, 2006, 02:31:41 AM »
Guppy your just an old fug that doesn't have a clue. I'm the same way, I don't know what's fun. Crap it took me 2 1/2 days, 18 fuggin hours of flyin to get my first kill way back when.

I strutted around the house yellin YEEEEEEEAAAA !! With my lady hitting the topgun tape.

Since that time my goal has been to be the baddest muther in the valley. Everything else to me is a side show. I want to be at the bottom of the pile taken names. I want to be knee deep with my hair on fire.

It's what's drivin the passion as long as I have flown. Eight years and thousands of hours.

I still suck. But there's always that next sortie. Topgun is all setup with a push of a button. And when the wheels are sucked up this next sortie might be the one..

Nose prints on the moniter and sweaty flight sticks. Three minutes burned into the memory for years.

But like you, I don't realize what this game really has to offer.
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight.in a brew...

Offline Redd

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« Reply #97 on: September 30, 2006, 09:12:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
it all started when they added gv's
for some reason it went from Aces High, a combat flight simulation game to a clone of WWII Online with an attempt to provide something for everyone regardless of their ability to play/complete in the game in its original format



Yeah , I agree Eagler.  When all there was to do was Air combat , people strove to be really good at it. You spent ages trying to work out tactics and ways to fight each different plane and opponent, and how to tweak maximum performance out of your particular ride. You spend months in one type of plane until you learnt it's strengths and weaknesses inside /out.

Do people do that any more  ?, I'm not so sure, seems to be only the rare few that really strive to be good at Air Combat, most seem happy to just fly around with a huge mob shooting anything that moves (or anything that doesnt move)

Maybe the new arenas wil bring some of that old stuff back.


Anyway , I flew a few sortiues in EW today and it was a lot funner than the MA had become.
I come from a land downunder

Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #98 on: September 30, 2006, 12:27:04 PM »
"snip"
Quote
Originally posted by Redd
Yeah , I agree Eagler.  When all there was to do was Air combat , people strove to be really good at it. You spent ages trying to work out tactics and ways to fight each different plane and opponent, and how to tweak maximum performance out of your particular ride. You spend months in one type of plane until you learnt it's strengths and weaknesses inside /out.


Maybe the new arenas wil bring some of that old stuff back.


 


I think we are seein some of that old stuff already.

In this respect i really like what the change has done.
i.e The respective player types have found a kind of refuge in the different arenas.

"Birds of a feather" thingy

Offline shiningpathb4me

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OK Guppy I'll explain it to you . . .
« Reply #99 on: September 30, 2006, 02:05:15 PM »
Some of us are all about the war and winning it. In the old MA, you never knew what the day might bring. Maybe my side would have numbers and we would move ahead, or maybe the enemy will have a horde on and we'll lose base after base.  When 'War fighters' login, they first study the map to see how their side is doing, and what needs to be accomplished strategically and or tactically to get  their country ahead in the war, and keep them there.

In the old MA, if you saw a chance to grab a base you grabbed it. Thats one more base their horde will have to roll up before before they can start on your your home territory. Every base you push forward adds to the cushion between you and defeat.  Their horde may have to to roll up 10 of their own bases back before they can start on the ones you most want to defend.

Then it changed. Suddenly we have three arenas.  The first few days in the new system I did what I always do - set out to win the map. I have no way of knowing that there will only be 2 knights on for the next three days. I'm going under the assumption that the numbers will reverse in a few hours and those dweebs will be doing the same thing to us - so lets head them off now and make it alot harder for them to reset us if they get numbers.

Now do you understand? It's not about taking undefended bases vs fighting.   It's about inexorably pushing forward towards a map reset, 24/7.  In the old MA the one thing you could count on was that the numbers would change, and in two more hours the nature of the struggle would change.

When the nature of the struggle doesn't change, well, it sorta becomes needless milkrunning. Whatever you make of it, it is just what I was doing at the time.  Once I figured that out, my incessant forays to town w/ an osty ceased. Maybe the guys just wants to see how many base captures he can get in one campaign. (In the old MA I had over 100 one campaign) When you figure that for every one of them, there were 4-5 others that I hammered the town or capped the base for someone elses capture, it means I helped take 500 - 600 bases in a months time.  I know virtually everything there is to know about capturing a base. I've used every trick, ruse, method, aircraft, and vehicle to do it.  

Yeah I get a warm fuzzy feeling when I hear some guy who's just figured out that an M16 kills towns faster than anything but lancasters.  We've put a stopwatch on the festivities to see jsut how fast we can drop one w/ a given number of people.

Training ideas:

If you aren't someone who's already killed a few thousand towns using every weapon platform in the game, it's a good way to get some some execution and timing issues worked out. Sure you could also do this in 8 player, if you dont have more than 8 people in the excercise.  Once new guys figure out the mechanics of a base capture, it takes alot of experience to gain 2 more levels of understanding - timing and player psychology. Those of us who've been at it awhile know how other side will react in certain situations. We also know how other squads in our own country will react.  I've learned to work with 'furballers' not against them. I know how NOT to piss them off.  I can appreciate what they're doing, and make my plans after considering their responses to a certain situation. If they wanna pick, vulch or furball, i make sure our town destruction squad comes in unseen if possible. We make sure we kill the VH first, not the fighter hangars. We put our ord and HE in the town, not the hangars. We give them M16's and osties to run to if they need it (just ask that they not come to town when the troops are inbound) We can cap a base with our gv's (for a time usually no longer than the flight time from the nearest adjacent enemy base for a P38 w/ bombs :) but we usually leave a hangar or runway untended so the air guys will get some action too. If theres enough of them, we don't touch the base except to kill the vh.

There's no need to quarrel over toolshedder vs furballer. I rarely anger anyone anymore with my activities. Sometimes it happens. If I get to a base with a plan in mind, and discover that there's an entirely different situatioon and psychology going on, I'm not going to turn around and go home. I'll try to make the best of the run.  

Lets say there's 2 of us on in my squad. A big dar's coming out of an enemy base. I don't knwo whats up, i just logged on, and my squaddie is a bette rbomber than he is anything else. I might suggest "lets go to A19 a kill their fighter hangars then we'll use the 15 min to figure out what were going to do about these guys". So we fly over to A19 and as we're are setting up our runs we hear someone telling his crew to get the vh and deack. Hmmm - apparently someone else has a plan we hadn't considered. If it's a squad that actually knows what the heck they're doing and they are prepared to execute, I'll adjust my run and hit the town. If I see a loose collection of new guys insterspersed witha vet or two making it up as they go, I'll go ahead and drop those hangars rather than try to work our plan into theirs.

Ok - my epistle has grown beyond your original question. so ill end it here.  I suspect some of the milrunning will subside in the coming days as most guys figure out it's not leading anywhere.  There are some legitimate reasons for the milkrun (i.e. answer the question, how many t34's is optimum for killing a town w/ HE in less than 5 minutes) Just as in a furball, everyone sees the same thing from a different angle or perspective. The guy you're yelling at may have just logged on 5 min ago and has no idea what you and you're guys have been doing for the last 2 hours.

Offline AKKaz

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Re: Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2006, 03:16:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
and in all seriousness I'm asking this.

What is the fun in rolling up undefended fields and 'winning the reset"?


I went into midwar tonite and see the beta 2 map is up.  Numbers are their typical self the last week or so.  Bish 38, Rooks 21 and Knits 10.

Undefended bases are dropping like flies.

Boom.  The "war is won" and the map is going to change.

I got exactly one flight in on that map in there.

Why do people want to fight no one?

And I really want to know the appeal of it.  I don't want to start a word war.  I understand people want different things from the game, but I really don't get the point.



My squad came on last night and went MW to group up.  After checking all the arenas, the most imbalanced was MW.  We decided to move to bish seeing how the numbers were way imbalanced (30 knits, 34 rook. 10 bish).
Also the bish bases were down to 10 with the other 2 countries around 26 each, so we started on trying to get things back on an even keel. Note: before changing, we made sure that our numbers moving did not make another imbalance.  It ended up close in numbers with the bish being the lowest by 2.

We started on the east side of the map to regain some bases back from rookland, but after taking 4 bases in about an hour and half, we looked at the numbers again and the rooks went from 34 to the low side of 15.

We try to change countries to not try to help out the low side, but also to get some fights going.  But when the numbers fluctuate so much and so fast, it's inevitable that the major swings can't be stopped.  As much as it might be needed, having the squad changing sides every hour or so just isn't feesible.

With one main arena, you got to know your fellow countrymen over time and knew how they flew, who and who not you could count on and their capabilities as a flyer.  With the new setup, changing side to try and help gameplay, the advantage of knowing who you are flying with is limited.  Especially since there are a few that don't see you as a "true" bish, rook, or knit and the support is even less (notice the word few).

That in itself makes those in your squad even more important to fly together.  And unless the AK's split into separate countries to have the fun of fighting each other (and we do), switching around again an hour or 2 later just start causing problems.

Solution, long or short term?  Don't know.....  Am hoping it will all sort itself out in the wash.  I hope.............


AKKaz
Arabian Knights

Offline culero

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Re: Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2006, 04:16:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
snip
And I really want to know the appeal of it.  I don't want to start a word war.  I understand people want different things from the game, but I really don't get the point.


There is no point, that's the point :)

culero (now read my avatard ;))
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Offline EagleDNY

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« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2006, 05:39:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

Did I miss anything?



I think you are missing quite a bit, and you assume quite a bit as well.

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

You want to win the war every single time.  That in itself says something.  What do you win?  You get to go back to the beginning and do it over.   And against as little opposition as you can find.  Again what's the point.
 


What we get is a new map, a new position, and a new set of strategic and tactical problems to solve - and if you read my post, you noted that I like the large horde on horde battle, so I wouldn't assume I'm looking "for as little opposition as I can find".  I'm perfectly happy with the Patton doctrine - grab your enemy by the nose and kick him in the A..

I could ask you whats the point of FT setups?  Three equidistant bases, a furball area into which you fly, get into a battle where you either kill or get killed before the next batch of guys flies over and cherry picks you before the next batch picks them.  Good ACM practice? Sure, but whats the point.  It seems like endless football practice without actually having a gameday.  

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

You mention newbies.  At one time or another the air to air advocates were newbies too and got their backsides handed to them over and over and over again.  After ten years of online flight sims I still get it handed to me.  The challenge becomes to get it handed to me less.  


Agree we were all newbies once, and that the challenge to get better is always there.  But better at what is the question too.  I've been flying sims since the old AW days myself, and I'd like to get better at bombing, torpedo bombing, ship and tank gunnery, mission planning, etc. as well as ACM.  

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

If you never challenge yourself to get better, and hide in a horde working the path of least resistance, again what's the point?  


Another assumption.  When the C-Hawks took up 5 groups of B17s with no escort and blasted A6 last night, outnumbered 140 Bish to 100 Knights, were we hiding in a horde?  We fought our way in, lost 3 bombers on the way, but hit our target and took the pressure off P7 which was captured shortly thereafter.  We didn't get much ACM practice in our B17s, but we had fun and accomplished the mission we set for ourselves.  Thats our point.

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

People keep pointing to hanging with their buddies.  What do you think the air to air guys do?  Often times their buddies are the guys they've flown against again and again.  There is a mutual respect based on the competition, not the lack therof.  


I see a lot of that "mutual respect" on channel 200.  If you want to fly against your buds again and again, more power to you.  Have fun.  There's plenty of arena space and 8-player mode for you to have fun in.  You pay your $15, use the time as you see fit.  Perhaps your air to air buds might even consider winging up and going to defend something against an incoming attack...

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

Again if there is no challenge, then all you really want is a flying chatroom, which is fine I guess, but maybe we neet HTC to give us the old AW style OCs for folks to sit and chat in.  That was fun too at times.  


We've got plenty of challenges to deal with, since there are landgrabbers from two other countries trying to conquer our sacred homeland.  I do find it more interesting to chat with my squaddies than to listen to the endless squabbling on 200 tho, so I am thankful for the chat channel.  

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

And lets be clear on something.  I agree that when mobs meet it's fun.  But many folks avoid those fights with their horde and go after the field that has no one there.  By the time the defenders can get moving, the VH is down, the field acks are dead as well as manned ack and if they up they get vulched.  Not much of a way to defend.

But again, the answer I seem to be getting is 'we like to hang with our buddies and have fun, joking around".  "We like to win the war".  "Why would we attack a defended field when it's easier to take an undefended one."  And what you seem to have added which is  "It would take to long to get any good at air combat, so I'll hang with the horde where I can feel protected and feel a sense of accomplishment without working at it."


Again, I do concur that the attackers have the advantage because their is insufficent warning time to get a defense up to altitude before the attackers are over the field.  I think we'd have larger air battles if the radar ranges were adjusted so that the defenders had time to get up and intercept.

If someone is "avoiding" combat, I wouldn't automatically assume they are without ACM skill either.  If they are heavy, trying to penetrate a defensive screen to take down a VH, or kill a CV, or pork troops & ords, they have a pretty good reason for not wanting to mix it up with the La-Las & Spits before  they get to target.

With all the big bad fighter jocks I see talking trash on channel 200, I'd have thought that it would be impossible for them to get through to target anyway.  I'm not going to assume someone isn't any good at air combat because he doesn't want to start furballing in a heavy fighter.  If you want to make that assumption, feel free to follow him in and get an easy kill when he pulls out.

EagleDNY
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Offline Overlag

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Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2006, 06:13:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
considering the source of that statement, I can understand why you like to milkrun.


ack-ack



:rolleyes:


why blame the "problem" on someone else?

if you dont like/dont want/cant defend, DONT blame the attacker for taking undefended bases. Its YOUR sides fault, not the attackers. They are "milkrunning" because of your lack of defence, and taking advantage of it.

its much like the furballers moaning about lack of furballs, yet they wont up and defend hordes. A undefended horde, is a horde. A defence against a  horde can be a furball.

waaaaaaaahhhhhhh they porked my fuel cos i didnt defend it.. HTC please remove fuel porking.......... :rolleyes:
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2006, 07:52:33 PM »
So far the initial post of Guppy's and that of hub's "poker analogy" are the only valid posts in all of this bickering.  

After over 4 years of playing this GAME, I no longer care about milkrunners, score potatos, etc.   They NEED this to make up for something missing in their lives.   Nothing will change, nothing.
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