Author Topic: Piracy: A general discussion  (Read 7527 times)

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2007, 03:10:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
How did DvD region coding affect regular users again? A regular user buys a DvD in china and tries to play it in the U.S.?


It affect me, I can to buy a US DVD but I'm not supposed to be able to play it.

And when the film is not availlable in France what should I do ?

Get a torrent ?

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2007, 05:49:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
It affect me, I can to buy a US DVD but I'm not supposed to be able to play it.

And when the film is not availlable in France what should I do ?

Get a torrent ?


Midi D is so limited to his own little world, he doesn't understand that enthusiasts regularly do business overseas to find rare or yet unreleased copies of movies. The region code is supposed to enforce a price fixing between continents, in itself completely illegal.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2007, 07:04:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually HDCP specifically RESTRICTS the output of HD content on non-HDCP products to DVD quality, it is hardware coded into the devices.
That's contrary to at least one of the articles linked above. I'll quote it again:

Quote
Some of this may be irrelevant because HDCP is activated by a flag present on the movie discs themselves. Currently, no currently released titles utilize HDCP protection, and rumors abound that it could be 2010 before movies with HDCP are released.


So... you're talking about the hardware not being HDCP certified, not the content. You seem to be interchanging the two. I don't forsee the hardware side of this being an issue for long at all. Compatability and certification will fall in line. It always has, no matter what the doom and gloom crowd says. The same things were being banterred about when DirectX was becoming king. Hell, the good old days boasted programs that would only work with specific video/sound hardware.

Quote
It affect me, I can to buy a US DVD but I'm not supposed to be able to play it.
That would be correct. I'm sure you've suffered greatly because of this, as has every "regular" user.
Quote
And when the film is not availlable in France what should I do ?
Endeavor to persevere.

When the film is not available in your region, there's a large number of people to thank. National law that might prohibit the release of movies without the proper language tracks, distributors that can't work out deals with publishers, distributors that don't think a movie is worth providing to the demographic, a history that includes the banning of nazzi emblems... whatever.

This is such a miniscule impact on the DvD market it is almost hillarious it's even being brought up as an issue in this thread. I guess the fact that this is what DRM is being compared to should be putting things in perspective.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 07:07:53 AM by Mini D »

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2007, 07:32:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Midi D is so limited to his own little world, he doesn't understand that enthusiasts regularly do business overseas to find rare or yet unreleased copies of movies. The region code is supposed to enforce a price fixing between continents, in itself completely illegal.
Ah... the word I was looking for has finally crept in. "Enthusiasts". That word is a little different than "regular users". I do enjoy watching the doom and gloom conversations morph into something a little more realistic.

Just to recap:

Backup = Load on multiple devices so I can listen to it on all of them
Regular user = Enthusiast

Gotcha.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2007, 08:49:29 AM »
have a large DvD collection too. I guess I'm missing how losing a DvD would impact you to any degree other than having to fork out another $10 for it. The value of a restored disk makes the DvD worthless... so value retention isn't there. What I really don't understand is why you think you're entitled to a backup of a product you bought.

MiniD

This is the real underlying issue...and its already been clearly decided in the courts. Under existing copyright law you do have a right to back up legally purchased material....period. what makes certain companies feel they have the legal right to deny you your legal rights?

While piracy is a very real issue it is dwarfed by infringement of consumer copyright laws. As more and more technology interferes with this your getting closer to a real issue. When I buy a blueray DVD I bought the legal license to own and watch that content....not just the media disk. This is fundamental to US copywrite law. Continued attempts to combat piracy without protecting legitimate consumer rights are a multibillion $$$ lawsuit waiting to happen.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2007, 08:55:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
This is such a miniscule impact on the DvD market it is almost hillarious it's even being brought up as an issue in this thread. I guess the fact that this is what DRM is being compared to should be putting things in perspective.


It's not an issue for you,it's a bit egocentric.

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2007, 11:15:45 AM »
There is no such thing as 'HDCP certified' hardware.  Either the hardware has HDCP embedded or it does not.  HDCP is a hardware and software implementation.  

I provided a link which explains it all.  That link is from the company who is extorting,..er,..selling HDCP licenses.

The common error most people make, is not separating the hardware specification for HDCP from the software requirements.  The software has control over the hardware.  In HD content, the particular flag most people are concerned about is the ICT flag.

This flag has not been implemented yet.  The decision was made by the HDCP committee to not allow the manufacturer's to implement this flag yet.  The basic reason stems from a change in the HDCP specification, which is not backward compatible with previus specifications, but hardware and software had already been built to.  Your basic mess.

So, once the committee thinks enough time has passed, they will allow the ICT flag to be enabled in the media.  The ICT flag controls how HD content will be allowed to be viewed/heard based on the level of HDCP support in the chain of items used to play the content.

The ICT flag can tell HD players anything from not playing the content at all, to only allowing a lower resolution to be played, if HDCP is not available in every piece of hardware which has anything to do with playing the content (in a computer, this is the sound card, video card, monitor (via the DVI or HDMI connector), and player).

Now, that is the upshot of it.  If one wants more information, it is available at the link I have already supplied.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 11:47:12 AM by Skuzzy »
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9911
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #112 on: February 22, 2007, 01:55:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Actually... I did. Did you read the site you linked? Cheap fast releases that weren't copyable to American markets. Where were they combatting piracy again?


Except they're not regionalized.

Cheap fast releases help them beat the black market pirates to market, especially the TS pirate or screener releases. It shows what the true cost of DVDs could be.

Offline Softail

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 327
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2007, 08:03:30 AM »
Very interesting conversation.  After reading a bit on StarForce I see it only took one approach at copyright or Intelectual Property (IP) protection.  That approach has a very high overhead because they are using a wrapper technology on everything.  This causes overhead when programs initially load into memory.  If the program cannot fit into the memory space then it must constantly unload, load and decrypt on the fly.   This lead to poor performance.

As for "DES" encyrptions, they are weak by todays standards and not even considered by most Security Experts to be an effective encryption.   AES/Blowfish is the latest standard and those have a glaring weakness.  The algorithms assume there is a "Safe" place to use keys to do encryption/decryption of data.  Doing a memory dump of while the decryption takes place...and you have the keys to the kingdom.
Hence, why so many AES protected programs get "hacked."

As for the AACS HD-DVD crack....again, doing an unprotected AES decryption in a hostile environment and poor protection lead to the comprimise of a single public key.  This was taken from a specific piece of hardware that did not properly implement AACS on that hardware platform.

Hence the weakness is the encryption/decryption keys (AES) and the vendors that are doing the developing.    These are where hackers are making their attacks count.    By effectively hiding the keying material, 80% of the hacks would vanish.  

Implementation, performance and cost is what is "keeping" companies from implementing fully hardened DRM solutions.   A technical, performance and cost analysis is done for a DRM protection scheme, they guess at where the "most likely" attack is going to happen, they then harden only those points.  Sooner or later, a hacker finds the soft spot they thought never would be found.  

Then they patch that hole, and re-deploy.  This is the cycle you see today.   You have to weigh risk vs performance vs being first to market.  To often, the first to market wins.

A good DRM solution would include:

Data and Code transformations on the programs running transport, encrypt/decrypt and storage procedures. Note: this is a tranformation not an "obfuscation."  Obfuscators can be cracked very easily.  This would be a true transfromation of the code that can produce multiple variants of the code with control flow flattening.  

Secured Encryption Capabilties.  Where the actual keys are never revealed in memory.  Better yet, transformation is done on the keys and made even more complex by using keying tables.

Secure Loading: Where code can run in the memory space and does is not subject to swapping, secure loading can prevent byte-code insertion attacks.

Anti-Debug:  Capabilities to "sense" when a debugger is run and trigger flags in the code when found.

Integrity Verification:  On disk encyrpiton of code and dll's that is verified as program segments are loaded into memory.

So you can see why the costs on both performance and $$$ of DRM can be very high.

As for the morality of DRM and its implementation or protecting a companies Intellectual Property,   I have no comment.  However, I would like the keys to decrypt the flight performance data in my copy of AHII so I can fly my A6M like a jet and put auto tracking rounds in it.   Of course I would only do this offline and I never intend to use it online or give the key to anyone else.  I promise.   Can I have them please? ;-)  ( I am only joking of course)

Overall, very interesting thread.


Softail

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2007, 11:22:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
It's not an issue for you,it's a bit egocentric.
Actually... you have that backwards. Because it's a big issue for you, you view it as a big issue for everyone. The phrase "regular user" came up... this does not apply to them. The word "enthusiast" then came up... this does apply to them.

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2007, 11:32:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
This is the real underlying issue...and its already been clearly decided in the courts. Under existing copyright law you do have a right to back up legally purchased material....period. what makes certain companies feel they have the legal right to deny you your legal rights?
I don't believe anyone has determined "you have the right to back up material". I do believe that no "backing up of material" has been seen as a copyright infringement. Do you think the two are the same?

In one scenario, the digital content provider would be required to provide some means of backing up material. The other scenario would mean the courts are not going to stop anyone from backing up material. The end result is that the digital content providers are left to their own devices to prevent backups.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2007, 12:38:42 PM »
Copy write law clearly establishes your right to copy material {within specific guidelines}. This is the same case law that makes it illegal to restrict "OEM" software for use on the "original" machine. Copyright law is intended to protect the rights of the "developer" against improper use. Not to infringe on my right to protect my "asset". I have every right under the law to make a copy of any copywrited material. I do not have the right to sell, distribute or utilize a copy concurrently with the original.

Copying materials under other circumstances is also upheld under various case law. The law is designed to prevent the developer from having his "property rights" circumvented not precluding the exercise of an existing "use license".

As an example a teacher who copies a portion of a textbook and distributes it within the class is in violation of copyright law if the school doesn't own a suitable number of originals....however lets say the books were damaged in a sprinkler leak. The teacher would be within her rights to copy the needed text. The material could also be put online for viewing by the students. However online "publication" over a general access URL would be a violation of copyright. Internal publishing without sharing privileges restricted to the number of available copies (not in use as a text) would also be a violation. The concepts of copywrite and "user license" predate the computer age by centuries. The bastardization of the these laws (primarily by Microsoft IMO) are simply another aspect of a bigger problem.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 12:57:36 PM by humble »

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2007, 12:52:39 PM »
Your wrong MiniD -

Title 17 of the U.S. Code states that
-  "it is illegal to make or distribute copies of copyrighted material without authorization" (Section 106). The only exception is the users' right to make a backup copy for archival purposes (Section 117).

Individuals have a right to make a backup copy of software if one is not provided by the manufacturer.

Seems pretty clear to me that the user is entitled to a backup, basically to protect HIS investment.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2007, 12:55:18 PM »
In short, the way I learned it is that copyright law protects the right of the folks that create it to earn money. If folks give it away for free (piracy) that's cutting into their profits.

However, the creators have no right to infringe on the rights of folks that legitimately own the material.

And then there's all sorts of fair use laws as well.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Piracy: A general discussion
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2007, 12:55:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Your wrong MiniD -

Title 17 of the U.S. Code states that
-  "it is illegal to make or distribute copies of copyrighted material without authorization" (Section 106). The only exception is the users' right to make a backup copy for archival purposes (Section 117).

Individuals have a right to make a backup copy of software if one is not provided by the manufacturer.

Seems pretty clear to me that the user is entitled to a backup, basically to protect HIS investment.


Yup

section 117

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson