Time to help the Me-410

[SkyRock]

Hell, the one guy killed 17 38's before he got ganged!  hee hee He also killed 7 38's in 11 days, according to the data.

[Tails]

I will keep voting Me410 for as long as it's on the list. As mentioned, it's one helluva sexy bird

And, was I on some kind of narcotic, or did I actually see someone quote me outside of the original thread

[humble]

On 23 August 1944, Ebener was shot down in aerial combat with USAAF fighters southeast of Paris in Bf 109 G-14 (W.Nr. 780 667) “Black 2”. Ebener baled out badly wounded

Your simply one of those folks who is incapable of any reasonable or straight forward debate.

The plane was in frontline service for a year....period (1 for me)...

I gave you a "best case weight of 16-17,000"....not a combat load. Again the planes wingloading is comparable to the A-26 not the 110,mossie or A-20 (two for me).

I didnt specify that all names were correct or that they died. Simply that they were shot down by P-38s. I have no intention of arguing with anyone incapable of legitimate interaction. Ebener (to the best of my knowledge) was shot down in combat with P-38's near Paris.

Gunter Seeger

He was shot down in aerial combat with USAAF fighters on 13 May. He belly landed his Bf 109 G-6 “White 13” east of Neumünster and was fortunate to escape injury. Seeger was shot down again on 24 May. Again he was the victim of USAAF fighters and made a belly landing near Pritzerbe in Bf 109 G-6 “White 1”. One of those was vs P-38's, forget which one....

Mid-air collision with a P-38 did Seifert in, so I’ll give you that one; killed by P-38 all right.

This is typical of your comments....

Siefert attacked the tail end plane in a formation of 38's in a climbing attack from below. The pilot of the 38 was  Lt Manuel Aldecoa. He saw Seifert and turned into the attack. Peter Crump was leading the 2nd element, he observed both planes score hits and they collided front Qtr to Front Qtr. Aldecoa bailed out but his chute streamed...Siefert was either injured or unable to bail and rode his plane in. This is typical of your superficial knowledge of both aircraft and historical events.  (I lost count of how many for me by now).

Reinhold Hoffman was hit by the escorting fighters (P-38's)...
On 24 May 1944, Hoffmann attempted an emergency landing at Friesack following aerial combat. His Fw 190 A-8 (W.Nr. 680 184) “Yellow 3” crashed killing the pilot.

I dont need to "substantiate" anything. 1st you asked me for 1, then you accused me of fabrication. As I said this list is not anything more then an overview. Wolfgang Neu shot down a 38 of 20th group shortly before his death. Third Gruppe claimed 1 B-17, 1 P-47 and 1 P-38 in ther action imediately preceeding Nue's death. second group claimed 2 B-24's as well as two P-47's from the escort. Nue was free lancing and not killed in the main action. Other pilots in the gruppe reported a flight of P-38s in the area and there is a coresponding claim....again this is not a sure thing....simply my recollection from a couple of different histories of JG26.

Anton Piffner

On 8 April, he was wounded over Salzwedel in aerial combat. He successfully baled out of Fw 190 A-8 (W.Nr. 170 044) “Black 3”. Again at this time most escorts were #8's (not all). you'll note multiple 38 claims among his buff kills....he was encountering 38's regularly. Again this is from varied reading....


I will leave you wallowing in your ignorance with this one....

Josef-Emil Clade

His last aerial combat took place on 25 February, when he engaged and shot down an USAAF P-38 twin-engine fighter. However, his aircraft had also received damage in the encounter and he was forced to bale out. He later met his opponent and exchanged souvenirs over a meal.

So in Feb or 1945 P-38's were actually still flying over Germany. And as often happened both planes took enough damage to be unflyable.


As far as I can see your not capable of actually engaging in any form of real debate or discourse. As a final side note on the combat action that cost Siefert and Acosta their lives the 55th FG went on to engage both the 190's of JG3 and 109's of JG2 shooting down 2 190's and 2 109's respectively with no further losses.

Here is the summary for the 55th FG for November 1943...

03rd - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) (.5)FW-190 destroyed (air) Westerholt-Wittmund
03rd - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) (2)FW-190 damaged (air) N/Wilhelmshaven
03rd - 2/Lt. Willard L. Kreft (38th FS) (.5)FW-190 destroyed (air) Westerholt-Wittmund
03rd - 2/Lt. Harold M. Bauer (343rd FS) FW-190 probable (air) South Wilhelmshaven (No Claim credited)
03rd - 2/Lt. Robert L. Buttke (343rd FS) (2)Me-109 destroyed (air) E/Wilhelmshaven
03rd - 1/Lt. Paul E. Hoeper (343rd FS) FW-190 probable (air) Wilhelmshaven (No Claim credited)
03rd - LtCol. Jack S. Jenkins (343rd FS) FW-190 probable (air) Wilhelmshaven
03rd - LtCol. Jack S. Jenkins (343rd FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) Spiekeroog Isle
03rd - Capt. Roland M. Malmstedt (343rd FS) Me-109 damaged (air) Wilhelmshaven
03rd - 2/Lt. Claire D. Porter (343rd FS) No Claim credited (Engagement Report)
03rd - 1/Lt. Eugene R. Ryan (343rd FS) Me-109 damaged (air) Wilhelmshaven
03rd - 1/Lt. Kenneth J. Sorace (343rd FS) FW-190 probable (air) Wilhelmshaven (No Claim credited)
03rd - 2/Lt. Raymond L. Sumpter (343rd FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
05th - F/O David D. Fisher (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
05th - 2/Lt. Richard W. Forsblad (38th FS) FW-190 damaged (air) E/Rotterdam
05th - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) W/Arnhem
05th - 1/Lt. Gerald F. Leinweber (38th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) Rotterdam
05th - Capt. Joseph Myers (38th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) Arnhem
05th - Capt. Mark K. Shipman (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
05th - 2/Lt. Delorn L. Steiner (38th FS) Do-217 damaged (air) Munster
05th - 1/Lt. Wilton E. Wyche (38th FS) No Claim made (Combat report supporting Lt. Leinweber's claim)
07th -  Capt. Roland M. Malmstedt (343rd FS) No Claim credited (Engagement Report)
13th - Capt. Thomas E. Beaird Jr. (38th FS) FW-190 damaged (air) W/Bremen
13th - 2/Lt. Gerald Brown (38th FS) Me-109 damaged (air) Bremen
13th - 2/Lt. Paul Fisher Jr. (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
13th - Capt. James H. Hancock (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
13th - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) Ju-88 destroyed (air) Bremen
13th - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) Ju-88 probable (air) Bremen
13th - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) Me-109 probable (air) Bremen
13th - Maj. Milton Joel (38th FS) Me-109 damaged (air) Bremen
13th - 1/Lt. Gerald F. Leinweber (38th FS) No Claim made (Report on 1/Lt. Beall's combat 338th FS)
13th - 2/Lt. Robert F. Maloney (38th FS) FW-190 destroyed (air) Bremen
13th - 2/Lt. Robert F. Maloney (38th FS) FW-190 damaged (air) Bremen
13th - Capt. Joseph Myers (38th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) Bremen
13th - Capt. Joseph Myers (38th FS) Ju-88 damaged (air) Bremen
13th - 1/Lt. Wilton E. Wyche (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
13th - Maj. Richard W. Busching (338th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
13th - 2/Lt. Karl H. Garlock (338th FS) Me-210 damaged (air) Hagen
13th - 2/Lt. Ernest W. George (338th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
13th - Capt. Charles O. Jones (338th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
13th - Capt. Joseph P. Marsiglia (338th FS) Me-210 probable (air) Hagen
13th - 2/Lt. Fleming W. Suiter (338th FS) No Claim made (just Encounter report)
13th - Capt. Edward B. Giller (343rd FS) Ju-88 destroyed (air) W/Bremen
13th - Capt. Eugene R. Ryan (343rd FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) W/Bremen
13th - Capt. Eugene R. Ryan (343rd FS) FW-190 probable (air) W/Bremen
13th - 2/Lt. Richard C. Stanton (343rd FS) No Claim made (confirmation of Ryan's Me109 claim)
13th - 2/Lt. Richard C. Stanton (343rd FS) No Claim made (confirmation of Ryan's FW-190 claim)
25th - 2/Lt. William K. Birch (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
25th - 2/Lt. Robert F. Maloney (38th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) Lille
25th - 2/Lt. Robert F. Maloney (38th FS) Me-109 probable (air) Hazebrouck
25th - Capt. Joseph Myers (38th FS) No Claim made (just Engagement report)
25th - Capt. Chet A. Patterson (338th FS) FW-190 destroyed (air) Lens
25th - 2/Lt. John R. Pruitt (338th FS) No Claim credited (Combat report)
25th - LtCol. Jack S. Jenkins (343rd FS) FW-190 destroyed (air) La Bassee
25th - Capt. Roland M. Malmstedt (343rd FS) Me-109 probable (air) Lille
25th - Capt. Eugene R. Ryan (343rd FS) (2)Me-109 damaged (air) Lille
26th - 2/Lt. Robert E. Erickson (38th FS) FW-190 damaged (air) W/Bremen
26th - Capt. Roland M. Malmstedt (343rd FS) Me-109 probable (air) Lille
26th - Maj. Dallas W. Webb (343rd FS) Me-210 destroyed (air) NE Bremen
29th - Capt. Thomas E. Beaird Jr. (HdQtrs) Me-109 probable (air) W/Bremen
29th - Capt. Jerry H. Ayers (38th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) W/Bremen
29th - 2/Lt. Robert E. Erickson (38th FS) Me-109 damaged (air) W/Bremen
29th - Capt. Joseph P. Marsiglia (338th FS) Me-109 damaged (air) E/Emmen
29th - Capt. Chet A. Patterson (338th FS) Me-109 destroyed (air) N/Emmen


Anyone with any reasonable knowledge of history and/or any desire to understand true events will have np problem researching historical fact.

As I said the P-38 served with distinction in both the ETO and MTO. It was the 1st true long range bomber escort and did an admirable job. While it certainly wasnt the premier fighter in the european theater it continued to see action thru the end of the war. Many reasonably accurate histories exist that attempt to match up the various claims and but faces behind the victims on both sides. No claims history is truely accurate and I see no reason to wade thru and match up various names and places. The 55th alone recorded over 100 air to air kills in 38's (they flew 51's later in the war). While some of these were obviously baby seals many german pilots transfered from the east fell in combat between mid 1943 and mid 1944...a time period where the P-38 played a prominant role.

[humble]

Nice cover in case your blatant lying is found out. Like I said, continue your trolling.

You asked a question and I gave you a forthright and reasonable attempt at an answer. I also made it clear that it was a quickly compiled answer. What I see from people like you is pure garbage. Show me when, where, how the 410 even gets close to the performance of the 38. It was basically a piece of junk....

[humble]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Hell, the one guy killed 17 38's before he got ganged!  hee hee He also killed 7 38's in 11 days, according to the data.

Siefert knocked down 32 spits....no question many of these guys were exceptionally good. most of them dies primarily to wrong place wrong time....but many were also shot down repeatedly as well.

[Viking]

Originally posted by humble
Numerous expertain fell to the P-38 in combat actions over western europe in 1944.

"Fell" is usually interpreted as "killed" when used in the context of combat. You have failed (miserably I might add) to substantiate your "numerous" claim. (All for me.)

The rest of your post is just your usual rubbish and is inconsequential. Now if you want to continue your P-38 masturbation start your own thread.

[Tails]

Jeeze, all the arguing and controversy...

This plane is SURE to be voted in!!!

EDIT: And if it is, I'll have to change the block of ENIGMA in my sig.

[humble]

Originally posted by Viking
"Fell" is usually interpreted as "killed" when used in the context of combat. You have failed (miserably I might add) to substantiate your "numerous" claim. (All for me.)

The rest of your post is just your usual rubbish and is inconsequential. Now if you want to continue your P-38 masturbation start your own thread.

"Fell" means shot down....always has and always will.

What you have substanciated is your a classless toad with zero understanding of reality. you asked for one... I gave it to you.... and I told you there were more. you called me a liar. I gave you more. Instead of manning up and admitting your mistake you continued and made it a personal attack. The only thing here that is "inconsequential" is you.

[Viking]

Ouch! *Theatrically reaches for my heart and gasps for air*

[moot]

Originally posted by humble
Me410:
ubersexy,
twin-engined, good for 388mph,
dive brakes,
glass cockpit,
all guns centralized: 50mm BK5, 30mm high velocity, stiff-trajectoried MK103's, as many as 8 MG151/20 20mm's, aka You find the Mosquito punchy?
2000kg / 4000lbs of bombs, 6 21cm rockets...

You know you want it!

[Gianlupo]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Hell, the one guy killed 17 38's before he got ganged!  hee hee He also killed 7 38's in 11 days, according to the data.

Watch "Pips" Priller tally, SR: 68 Spitfire. And he survived the war. One of the best pilot and Geshwader Kommodore of the LW.

Originally posted by Tails

EDIT: And if it is, I'll have to change the block of ENIGMA in my sig.

Wow, go, 410, go! I'd really like to know what's written there!

Moot, in the second picture you posted, the plane is a B2/U2/R5, it has 4 7.9 MGs and 6 cannons, the slots under the wing are ejecting ports.



AFAIK, 1 only had 8 MG151, the one of Lt. Rudi Dassow, of ZG. 26, holder of the Knight cross.

Regarding max ordnance, honestly, I didn't find many sources claiming it could carry 2000 kg as ordinary loadout (EDIT: to be honest, the only one is the Luftwaffe resource group, on the net), it was more likely limited to 1200 like the 110G2. There were experimental installations, like with the anti ship 410B5, of more heavy loadouts, but I think they never seen combat. However, I may be wrong, after all, I just can trust a couple of books I have.

[Ball]

Originally posted by Gianlupo
Watch "Pips" Priller tally, SR: 68 Spitfire. And he survived the war. One of the best pilot and Geshwader Kommodore of the LW.

Off topic:

I often wonder about these "Spitfire kills" the Germans claimed.  I would suspect that sometimes any RAF aircraft was claimed as a Spitfire.  I read a report where an RAF Hurricane pilot met the 109 pilot he had shot down that day while he was being detained.  The German pilot was at first horrified, then refused to believe that he had been shot down by a Hurricane and not a Spitfire.

[Gianlupo]

Yep, Furby, I know that, but, as you say, German pilots invariably said they were shot down by a Spitfire, not to have shot down a Spit.

AFAIK, the German scoring system was one of the most inflexible: only with camera footage or report of some witness a kill would have been confirmed. I guess that most of them are right, even because the tallies of German pilots were so impressive that they've been researched extensively and thoroughly by a lot of historians.

So, even though some errors may persist, I think that list is quite accurate.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Gianlupo
Regarding max ordnance, honestly, I didn't find many sources claiming it could carry 2000 kg as ordinary loadout (EDIT: to be honest, the only one is the Luftwaffe resource group, on the net), it was more likely limited to 1200 like the 110G2. There were experimental installations, like with the anti ship 410B5, of more heavy loadouts, but I think they never seen combat. However, I may be wrong, after all, I just can trust a couple of books I have.

From the Me 210 and 410 entry in the book “Hitler’s Luftwaffe” by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston:

“Armament: Varied, but basic aircraft invariably defended by two remotely-controlled powered barbettes on sides of fuselage each housing one 13mm MG 131 and, if bomber version, provided with internal weapons bay housing two 1,102lb (500kg) bombs; external racks on nearly all 210 and 410 for two 1,102lb stores (exceptionally, two 2,204lb). Normal fixed forward-firing armament of two 20mm MG 151/20 and two 7.92mm MG 17. Me 410 versions had many kinds of bomber-destroyer armament, as described in the text.”

So in “exceptional” cases it could even carry two 1000 kg bombs on external racks. That ups the total bomb load to an amazing 6612 lbs.

[Gianlupo]

Thanks Viking.

But... that entry is a bit unclear. In fact, it doesn't necessarly mean the 410 was able to carry up to 3000 kg of bombs. In fact the external racks for 500/1000 kg may have been added to make up for the loss of room in the bomb bay, taken by additional guns.
And, again, if they had "external racks on nearly 210 and 410" for 500/1000 kg loads, I wonder why I couldn't find such a statement in my sources. I mean, if that was so common, I'd have found it.
 
What you quoted still leaves me with doubts... anyway, I'm sure HTC can find the sources they need to model the plane: what really matters now is to support this plane, we'll have to worry about the loadout only when it'll win the vote!