Author Topic: Dodging the head-on on the second merge  (Read 4151 times)

Offline crockett

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2007, 04:19:21 PM »
Personally I try to turn slightly before the merge if I can get away with it. That way it gives you more time to react to his next move and hopefully keep you out of that kind of situation. That can get you in trouble if the guy is quick and can see what you are trying to do, but most guys never do.

In reality it just depends what kind of plane you are in.. If I'm in a fast plane and he's in a good turner, I'll just keep my speed and let him turn while I keep going straight. At that point I'll try and climb a little to get an alt advantage on the other guy. Then plan another attack.

Patience is your friend, no need to rush it if you have the option not to. Personally I try to avoid that kind of continuous head on fight if at all possible. It really never turns out good as you have a 50/50 chance in winning it.

IMO if the con gets a chance to do a second HO on you, then you didn't do your job in putting him on the defense. Your job is to be the attacker and fly offense the cons job is to die on the defense.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2007, 04:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Of course I have no problem dodging the initial head-on unless the other ship's a four cannon bird.  But after the first merge, if I take the most efficient course and Immelmann, we end up facing each other again and this time at a significantly lower speed.

1)well......i think it was you that helped me on this one a bit.....i dive in an attempt to go under my opponent....and about 1k or so out, i kick a bit of rudder either way, to thorw off his line up....i also chop throttle at this point as i'm pulling up, trying to allow a tighter turn(in the vert)and hopefully beat him to the rollout to level....works bout 50% of the time.

I find that not only can I not dodge the headon at all at this speed, but I cannot make an amendation to my Immelmann so that we do not quite end up facing each other, without sacrificing enough of an angle that I do not regret it later.  I find that offsetting my nose enough that he can't hit me while still trying to remain in the vertical is just about impossible.

The only thing which I've ever been able to do with this is simply avoid the Immelmann and do a combat turn instead, but if the other guy is as good as I am he will get a small firing window.  I dodge these about half of the time by jinking, but that's not good enough.  Moreover, this usually gets him an angle advantage later because an Immelmann is more efficient than a combat turn.
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Offline CAP1

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2007, 04:22:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Not likely!  Didn't you see Flyboys?  After watching that even I had a guilty urge to go head-on with someone.


how about diving straight down on em too.........you KNOW those paper airplanes they flew back then couldn't possibly pull out like they did in that movie.......
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Offline Agent360

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2007, 06:28:12 PM »
Remember that every turn where you meet at 0 to 30 deg is a new merge. The first merge only sets the stage. On the second merge after the first turn its just like you were merging for the first time. Each merge initiates a new fight.

If you merge correctly the first time you should be in a position to gain control. This may mean giving him angles but it is only fleeting. It is a trick in disquise. The player who attempts to bring his nose direclty at you on the second merge is only setting himself up for a lead turn of some kind.

Anytime a player goes for a HO shot it puts you at an immediate advantage. When they do this if you are thinking about ACM and not trying to HO back you can EASILY lead turn out of the gun envelope and be either at guns on them immediatly or dropping in for a saddle shot.

They can not react to your lead turn if they are going for guns. Its a simple fact of geometry. They go for HO you lead turn and come around on there six.

That second merge you are asking about is your golden oppurtunity to win. 99% of players can not resist taking a shot of some kind at that point. Knowing this it is easy to draw them into a sucker set up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below is my LONG short story about HO in general

Some people here just don't get the whole HO thing.

As someone pointed out earlier HO was used in real combat...BUT...there was a reason....as stated "to protect the bombers". That was the whole point of having fighters in the air. Fighter sweeps were rare. When faced with 100 me109's coming in to shoot up allied bombers they did everything and anything to protect them which did include a first pass HO shot on the bounce even if it meant getting killed your self. It was real combat and people do gallant things to do their job. After that it was gangbang wingman tactics. All the things we hait in this game such as HO, cherry picking, gangbanging, vulching were done as much as possible in REAL combat. If you got caught alone you were dead. Allied fighters never engaged without a wingman. Loosing your wingman in a fight almost always meant you were in big trouble if you lived to land. It was ALL about the bombers and protecting them.

When in the special events areana and your side is to protect an asset such as a carrier in order to win then HO or any other tactic is absolutly fair. You have a mission....and your duty is to do what it takes to win.

With 20 Mossies diving on a carrier you better HO pass every one you can. Do anything to kill them because that is the point.....NOT getting into a 1v1. That is not what a mission like this is about.

BUT in the MA....this is a totally different scenario. People here like to engage in ACM. Be it 5v1 or 1v1. HO here is a show of how you lack talent.

And in the DA if you HO you are what the FPS game players would call a "bunny hopper". A bunny hopper is equivelent to a skilless dweeb.

THE MA IS NOT I REPEAT NOT REAL LIFE. IT IS A GAME THAT WE PLAY TO HAVE FUN. We play to use ACM tactics. The whole point is to "Out Fly" your opponent. Like it or not MOST playes think you are a skilless bunny hopper if you HO. A HO is not an ACM tactic. It is a desperate attempt to get a kill for no other reason than to up your score. It has nothing to do with ACM. A HO because you are out numbered is still a skilless move. First don't put yourself there and if you do its your fault. Learn to fly so that you can either get a 1v1 or take on a 3v1 with or without advantage. If you get caught in a 1 v5 or more well you better run. HO to even the odds is still a dweeb move. Either fight with angles, out climb or call in some help. But HO is just a waste of everyones time.

This is a quote from the book "In Pursuit"
"....for every move you make he has an answer. Whatever you try, he's right there on top of you. Even scissors doesn't work. He anticipates your every move and isn't foxed by desperate attempts such as cutting throttle or throwing out flaps. He just won't let go. However, he's not firing. You've been dodging him for a good 5 min already, and he has yet to fire his guns? Is he out of ammo? Why then is he following you around? Is he trying to make you auger, or run you out of fuel? He keeps coming closer. You can see the individual blades in his propeller, the evil grin beneath those blank goggles.....NOW HE FIRES, when he cannot miss! You dodge, you skid, you roll like crazy. Still he won't let go. You swirl like a dervish, and he matches your every move - not wasting a single bullet! YOU are sweating bullets! You know that the instant you fumble, the isntant you mush, the instant you become predictable, it will be the end."

This is what I strive for. NOT a skilless HO shot because there is more than one con or so I can up my score ( scores are meaningless)

I think a lot of HO players come from FPS games like counter stirke and the like. There they are used to using bunny hoping game exploits to do nothing but get kills. They have no concept of "tactics". They just think its a flying automatic weapon to carelessly fly around looking to blow someting up. They mis understand history and think because BUD, Yeager, or whoever ACE did it then its legit in AH2. I am sorry to inform you that this is a game where we try to engage in crafty ACM in which one pilot out performs the other. That is fun.

---I win on the word count here....LOL If you have actually read this far I Salute you!!!!!

PS. If anyone tries a HO on me be prepared to experience what is described in the quoted paragraph above because I will lead turn you and you will be dead in 60 sec or less. You HO I get angles. You try a HO a second time I get more angles. Third time you are dead from a saddled six burst. Cheers!!! :D

Offline evenhaim

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2007, 06:30:34 PM »
wow long whinded ehh agent:D
lol from what i read i think i agree?
we oughta da again sometime
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Offline Agent360

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2007, 06:42:34 PM »
LOL Freeze

Yea it was a long post but tht was the only way I could get my point across on one post....LOL

Yea, I would love to DA. Anytime Im on PM me and we will go for a few rounds until I get tired of being target practice for you....LOL


Offline dedalos

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2007, 06:42:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Agent360
It is a trick in disquise. The player who attempts to bring his nose direclty at you on the second merge is only setting himself up for a lead turn of some kind.


Cerfull with that though.  Cannon birds need less than a second to kill you.  I do it all the time Vs 50cals but vs Spits, I dont always survive that move.

Quote

Anytime a player goes for a HO shot it puts you at an immediate advantage. When they do this if you are thinking about ACM and not trying to HO back you can EASILY lead turn out of the gun envelope and be either at guns on them immediatly or dropping in for a saddle shot.


Again, true if they miss.  After the second merge when you are both very slow, you will get hosed.  Not match you can do to avoid.  The problem in DA is that when we end up HO, I am stupid enough to try to avoid the HO.  Even with guys that I know will not take the shot, I have the colision to wory about.  What ends up happening is that because it is all about wining and most of them know what will happen eventually, they are willing to risk the colison than try to break.  So, if you pull out as you already are nice and slow, you expose your belly and they kill you. Then they send a good fight and come post about their skillz. So, if the guy you are fighting is not there for fun but to  win, you have to risk the colision or HO, or you give them a clean belly shot.

Quote


They can not react to your lead turn if they are going for guns. Its a simple fact of geometry. They go for HO you lead turn and come around on there six.


Not true Agent.  Only tru if you are fighting a newbe.  The fact is that if you guys merge at the same speeds, it does not take match to end up fascing each other.  HOs, no mater what people say, cannot always be avoided.  The moment you try, you will get killed by a 2 degree deflection shot.  Ask the aces.  Most of them make a leaving out of that. Oh yeah, and if you play their game, they will call you a ram tard lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Agent360

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2007, 07:26:19 PM »
Dedalos,

I agree with all your points.

The trick is to make the lead turn out of the gun envelope, or pass through the envelope with enough speed and some vert/oblique angle to make the shot near luck if it hits. Now this is easier said than done.

Fundamentally, though an attempt to go for guns puts you at a disadvantage. Whether that is capitalized on properly is another matter.

I guess an easy way of putting my point is this: Anytime you go for guns you give up angles and the defender get the same amount of angles you gave.

Lead turning can be done a number of different ways depending on how you are merging. If its obvious the con is going for guns you should have time to make an adjustment. It is not always necessary to make a lead turn that gives a gun solution. Often this lead turn is a bait move not in guns range leading up to a reversal conversion.

If you both pull hard and come around at near stall it is very difficult to initiate an angles gaining lead turn. BUT it can be done.

I think the real trick is to come into the second merge with more E. Even if it is just a skosh more this will give you an oppurtunity convert this E to angles in respect to the con going for guns.

Offline CAP1

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2007, 01:28:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
If im low and slow in my A8 and see a turner (sheitfire, niki, a6m, hurricane) infront of me ill HO their brains out. If i have abit of speed and afew options to avoid it and get into a fight ill do it.

The annoying HOes are those taken by oPEOPLEo who has alot of options but choose the HO anyway. :D


kinda like the lala passengers that have plenty of speed and alt?:D
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Offline dedalos

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2007, 08:58:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Agent360
Dedalos,

I agree with all your points.

The trick is to make the lead turn out of the gun envelope, or pass through the envelope with enough speed and some vert/oblique angle to make the shot near luck if it hits. Now this is easier said than done.

Fundamentally, though an attempt to go for guns puts you at a disadvantage. Whether that is capitalized on properly is another matter.

I guess an easy way of putting my point is this: Anytime you go for guns you give up angles and the defender get the same amount of angles you gave.

Lead turning can be done a number of different ways depending on how you are merging. If its obvious the con is going for guns you should have time to make an adjustment. It is not always necessary to make a lead turn that gives a gun solution. Often this lead turn is a bait move not in guns range leading up to a reversal conversion.

If you both pull hard and come around at near stall it is very difficult to initiate an angles gaining lead turn. BUT it can be done.

I think the real trick is to come into the second merge with more E. Even if it is just a skosh more this will give you an oppurtunity convert this E to angles in respect to the con going for guns.


Well, you do give angles, but the assumption here is that the guy going fo guns will miss.  If he does you are right, but is he going to?

Next time we are in the DA, look at your speed after the first merge.  Better yet, look at it after the second merge.  Making the guy that is willing to take the colision miss the belly shot is nearly impossible.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline BaldEagl

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2007, 11:30:30 AM »
Who dredged up this old thread?

I don't get the constant "If he tries to HO me he'll be dead in 30 seconds" cr*p.  What a bunch of BS.  Maybe on Noobs.

If you fly straight at someone you are setting up to take and also offering a HO.  It's up either or both of you to take or accept the HO.

If you dive out, turn in, Immelman or in some other way do not go nose to nose you are denying them the HO.  If they do get a shot on you it isn't a HO shot anymore, it's a deflection shot.

So, if you set up to take or offer a HO how in h*** are you doing anything different from the other guy that's going to give you this big "dead in 30 seconds" advantage?

If you deny the HO, instead offering a deflection opportunity, you should be able to come around on him for the kill if he trys to turn after going for the shot but if he just flys through he's likely to be able to extend away and all you've done at that point is given up E.
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Offline SlapShot

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2007, 11:39:48 AM »
if he just flys through he's likely to be able to extend away and all you've done at that point is given up E.

I usually go nose down on an intial merge  and then lead turn upwards. If he does fly straight thru ... most likely he/she will just continue to go away.

On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some E, but I transferred it to ALT ... and if the HOer does decide to turn, and not fly straight thru ... they usually are dead within 30 seconds.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2007, 11:44:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
if he just flys through he's likely to be able to extend away and all you've done at that point is given up E.

I usually go nose down on an intial merge  and then lead turn upwards. If he does fly straight thru ... most likely he/she will just continue to go away.

On my upwards lead turn, I may have given up some E, but I transferred it to ALT ... and if the HOer does decide to turn, and not fly straight thru ... they usually are dead within 30 seconds.


SlapShot, I know you know this but don't confuse speed with E.  E is the sum total of speed and altitude.  Yes, you converted speed for alt in an attempt to maintain E plus gain a turning advantage by slowing down but any type of turn or manouver bleeds E, even if it's only a small amount.

BTW, I did concede that if they try to turn after trying the deflection shot they are probably in trouble.
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Offline SlapShot

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2007, 12:18:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
SlapShot, I know you know this but don't confuse speed with E.  E is the sum total of speed and altitude.  Yes, you converted speed for alt in an attempt to maintain E plus gain a turning advantage by slowing down but any type of turn or manouver bleeds E, even if it's only a small amount.

BTW, I did concede that if they try to turn after trying the deflection shot they are probably in trouble.


I didn't think I was confused ...

There are 2 types of Energy ... Kinetic (speed) and Potential (altitude). I simply trade kinetic for potential ... so in essence, I really didn't lose anything in theory ... just traded.
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Offline dedalos

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2007, 12:22:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
I didn't think I was confused ...

There are 2 types of Energy ... Kinetic (speed) and Potential (altitude). I simply trade kinetic for potential ... so in essence, I really didn't lose anything in theory ... just traded.


Depends on how hard you pulled on the stick doesnt it?

As far as the 30 seconds go, that would have been the case anyway with you right?  HO or not, you most likely would have killed him in less than 30 seconds
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.