Th course of British Society in the future

[Shifty]

Originally posted by Laurie
It makes me chuckle how Hazzer and others standing along with him always resort to heckling someone as being racist or Nazi like whenever they lose arguments to people who are simply patriotic.

Old game. The left in America have been playing it for years.

[Hazzer]

To me Patriotism means loving your country.while I feel Nationalism is not so much loving your country as hating others.

  Laurie,I think at Best your a Nationalist,I would never call you a patriot as you clearly hate a significant portion of the British public.

  Churchill was an imperialist,but in trying to save his Empire he did save the Western world,and he was a man of charachter an vision.Never the less when WWII ended,the Britsh ppl voted for Atlee,they wanted somthing better than the old Europe.

   Thatcher.I admire her strength of charachter.

  Oh,and my Father fought  in wwII also,and his Artillery Regiment Liberated Bergen Belsen,which is where intolerant thinking Like yours Leads.

[AKH]

Originally posted by Laurie
You dont see it? British leaders wont go the full m ile with europe because it's ac ommon fact that the british public DONT LIKE IT. Your tangents and ideals are simp,y a minority in britain.
Ever wondered Why Blair doesn't want a referendum????????

We already did that.

[Dowding]

Toad - there must be something we haven't had an argument about. How about the best way to serve a fillet steak?

Laurie - you really ought to get out into the wider world, but since you are at school I can make allowances - no doubt you will get the opportunity.

I work for a large privately owned American conglomerate and we have operations on every continent. Europe is something we do a hell of alot of business with and our place alongside France and Germany is something we should welcome. In my job I've met people from all over Europe, from Finland to Turkey - there is mutual respect there... and healthy competition.

Your attitudes about the French, Spanish and Germans are something straight out of a 'Till Death Do Us Part' episode. Times have changed, and so has Britain's place in the world - your position is as dated as the attached picture from the series.



The EU is a powerful economic force that Britain needs. The Germans don't want to dominate; they only this week stated their opposition to a constitution or an appointment of a foreign minister to represent the EU.

The EU is helping to bring the old Eastern Bloc countries in from the cold. I don't mind my taxes going towards them making that transition - the US, UK and France abandoned them to Stalin after WWII and that needs to be remedied.

BTW, Laurie, for future discussions, please don't plagiarise online content; include your references. You took this straight from the net:

Winston Churchill's call in 1945 for a "United States of Europe," a federation of European states to promote harmonious relations between nations, economic cooperation, and a sense of European identity, has caused him to be regarded as the father of European unity. While in opposition, Churchill argued forcefully at home and abroad that a united Europe was the best means to heal residual hatred from the Second World War. Yet Churchill's rhetoric is sometimes difficult to reconcile with his ambivalence regarding Britain's role in his proposed federation, particularly after he returned to power in October 1951.

[Whisky58]

Originally posted by Laurie
You don't see any cities in Asia where the 'traditional' ways of life and stereotypes of peoples have been outnumbered by a foreign race of peoples.

 

Wrong.
Even a superficial glance at the history and demography of Asia shows that it has been a place of constant racial flux and mixing, with traditional ways of life changing and evolving.
Delhi, Jaipur and Bombay(Mumbai), to name a few that I've visited, are cities that are melting pots of different races, religions, cultures and traditions. Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Parsi, Jain etc. Hong-Kong is the other obvious example.
(India is also the largest democracy in the world - largely as a result of the influence of that wicked & evil British Empire:) )

[Hazzer]

We had a referendum in 1975.

[Angus]

Churchill was in the USA during WW2, and had to suffer an interview with a certain lady, closely related with influential pople from the U.S. press.
(no names)
The lady was hot-headed about the British imperialism (seems to me like a miniscule issue of importance in those dark days), - anyway, she was particularly inquisitive about India, and asked Churchill about what the British were to do to improve the very low life standards of the Indians.
Churchill replied something like "Do you refer to the prospering brown indians of the British, or do you refer to the red indians of the Americans, - who I belive have mostly disappeared"?

Not accurate and out of memory, but something to ponder on all the same.

And Laurie, take a good breath will you.

[Hazzer]

Whiskey,I didn't say the British Empire was Evil,the British Empire was probably the most benign Empire the world has known,But Empire is wrong.in my book.

[Whisky58]

Originally posted by Laurie
IF you are trying to hint at WW2 to here,


then Oh boy you'd better be very, very careful who you start calling a nazi my miniscule friend.

Of course I'm referring to WW2 - how many 4+ year long wars do you think my dad could possibly have been in?

I don't think you're a Nazi Laurie, but it illustrates how a few ill-chosen words about skin colour can rapidly up the ante and fuel those extremists on all sides who exploit racial differences for their own nasty political aims. It also has a habit of turning rational debate into an insult fest.

My view of multiculturism is not lots of different cultures sitting side by side in isolation from each other within a country, but the blending of cultures to produce a stronger culture. It's like animal husbandry and breeding. I hate to keep harping on about history but Britain really is a good example of how the integration of different cultures leads to strength.  You're obviously proud of your British ancestory and heritage Laurie, & I'm proud of mine, but that heritage is comprised of a diverse mix of cultures. To a Romano-Brit living in 5th century England, the Anglo-Saxons would have been as culturally remote as a muslim Pakistani is to me - probably more so because at least we have the common heritage of the British Empire.  There will always be friction for a few generations between different cultures rubbing shoulders - humans are tribal animals.  Compared to having hoards of Anglo-Saxons killing and pillaging I think cultural integration in Britain at present is fairly smooth.  The Anglo-Saxons brought some pretty poor ideas with them (eg polytheism, trial by combat) but also some good technology and agriculture and their contribution to language. I don't think anyone in the UK (apart from a few extremist "Celts", whatever they are) would deny that with time the integration of Anglo-Saxon culture in Britain was a good thing.  

I don't like people who come here to sponge off our welfare state. I don't like people who make no attempt to integrate or learn English. I don't like people who come here and take advantage of our liberal laws to slag Britain off.  I don't like the hypocracy that surrounds the way race problems are dealt with by officials.  I don't like religious and racial fundamentalists, supremists and extremists. I don't like bigots and ignorance.

I work in Bradford. I've been racially abused in my own country - how do you think that makes me feel?  My experience is that the majority of immigrants want to contribute something positive to our culture, and that's just fine with me.

As far as Europeans being "traditionally" white and Africans being "traditionally" black, it depends how far back in time you regard "tradition".  The current human evolution scientific orthodoxy is that we are all descended from common African ancestors who were almost certainly black skinned, as were their descendent who migrated into Europe. White skins evolved in northern latitudes over a long period of time to increase vitamin D production in the skin in areas of low sunlight - thus preventing rickets.

Finally, I've been insulted in many ways over the last 49 years, especially on rugby pitches, but I've never, ever been described as miniscule before. It's a first- I'll treasure it

Regards

[Whisky58]

Originally posted by Hazzer
Whiskey,I didn't say the British Empire was Evil,the British Empire was probably the most benign Empire the world has known,But Empire is wrong.in my book.

Agreed mate. Just trying to point out clumsily that the British Empire wasn't all bad.

[Angus]

Clumsy British Empire occupied my country in 1940 on the same day as Hitler launched the advance on the western front. 10th of may.
While the Netherlands and France suffered terrible years to come, my country had a complete British Gentleman to deal with, and it was, despite of losses in war, - better times in many ways.

[Laurie]

As clumsily as i have put it through these 6 pages of posts,

i'm sick and tired of thing's like 'bar bar blue sheep' as oppossed to black sheep. It's political correctedness gone mad, can you be in favour of things like this?

[Hawco]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Not really.

Most British colonies did worse after the end of British rule than they did under it.

As an example, look at Ghana. In 1960, a few years after it was granted independence, the average Briton was 39 times richer than the average Ghanain. Now, 50 years after they "got the British boot off their throat", the average Briton is 92 times richer than the average Ghanain.

It's a similar story throughout Africa. Following independence, the gap in wealth between Britain and the ex-colony widened.

That's true for most ex British colonies throughout the world, too.

The only ones that got richer relative to Britain between 1960 and 1990 were Lesotho, Pakistan, Egypt, Botswana, Malaysia, Malta, Barbados, Cyprus, Israel, Ireland, Singapore, Canada and the United States. (not all fit the precise definition of colony)

The rest, and there are a lot of them, did relatively worse after independence than they had under British rule.

I think Ireland could be an exception to this, they now have a booming economy by being fully integrated into Europe, That works for them, But I'm not so sure that EU Integration works for the UK, Most people in the UK see themselves as British and not European. Look what happened to the Euro in the UK for example, Anyway, Scotland has the SNP in charge there now, Not long till they hold a vote on being part of the UK and then you will see a different dynamic taking place in British Politics and indeed in the Cultural sense too.

[AWMac]

Are you out of Vegas and back in Cali?

Call.

Mac

[Laurie]

Originally posted by Hawco
I think Ireland could be an exception to this, they now have a booming economy by being fully integrated into Europe, That works for them, But I'm not so sure that EU Integration works for the UK, Most people in the UK see themselves as British and not European. Look what happened to the Euro in the UK for example, Anyway, Scotland has the SNP in charge there now, Not long till they hold a vote on being part of the UK and then you will see a different dynamic taking place in British Politics and indeed in the Cultural sense too.

The inevitbale end of 'Great Britain'/'United Kngdom will be a dark day for brtish history and dreadful shame.