Author Topic: which branch of governement is cheney in again?  (Read 1730 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2007, 09:39:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
No, VP is cabinet rank member. Read the article 2, section 2 and 4. In section 4 VP is clearly named as member of executive branch.


Quote
Art 2 Sec 1.
The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the Vice-President, chosen for the same term, be elected as follows:


So this says the President has the executive power...  no power or duties to the VP other than to wait around and assume the presidency should something happen.

Quote
ART 2 Sec 1.6
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President,

 
So this says the President has the executive power...  no power or duties to the VP other than to wait around and assume the presidency should something happen.

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Section 4
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States,
shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.


Quote
source
CIVIL OFFICER - The Constitution of the United States, Art. 2, S. 4, provides, that the president, vice-president, and civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. By this term are included all officers of the United States who hold their appointments under the national government, whether their duties are executive or judicial, in the highest or the lowest departments of the government, with the exception of officers of the army and navy. A senator of the United States, it was once decided, was not a civil officer, within the meaning of this clause in the Constitution.


Even though ART 2 is the executive branch, The term civil officer does  cross over from the executive to the judicial branch, so Section 4 does not clearly define the position of VP as an exective one.

So barring the assumption of the Presidency, the only constitutional power of the VP is as president of the Senate so before a rise to the presidency, perhaps he is a member of the legislature.  It’s an interesting argument anyway.
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Offline bj229r

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2007, 09:45:04 PM »
He gets to go to all the funerals too:aok
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Offline Mace2004

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2007, 10:14:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
I guess that's why IAP was given the contract to manage part of the Walter Reed veterans hospital even after in 2004 the Army determined that federal employees could operate the facilities more efficiently.

The contract was still given to IAP whom happens to have "the right" connections in the white house. I.E.  CEO's were former KBR executives aka subsidiary of Halliburton. One of the Chairmen for IAP  just happens to be  John W. Snow the Bush admin former Secretary of the Treasury.

Of course that's all just coincidence and I must be a Liberal just wanting to bash the Bush admin. I mean after all the whole scandle about our troops getting sub par treatment was just the liberal media trying to bash the bush again.

1)So we have army telling us they can do a better job cheaper and serve our soldier's beter.
+
2)IAP has links to Bush and co white house and is given contract in which they fumble things up big time.
=
3)Liberal media just bashing Bush again.. no evidence of any wrong doing here tune into more FOX news so you can decide.

That's just one example.. do you need more?


Of course, Crocket proves my point yet again.  

First, you can stop crediting me with things I didn't say.  

Second, all you're doing is the same thing some conservatives did when they tried to tie Clinton to various murders.  This is like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon stuff, you can tie anyone to anyone else if you go deep enough yet do you have any proof?  No, you don't.  

Third, the VP has absolutely nothing at all to do with letting government contracts with the Pentagon.  As a matter of fact, as the purse string holders Congress has much more to do with contracts than the Executive branch.  

Fourth, efficiency doesn't have much to do with contracts, cost does.  "Efficiency" is a relative term.  Some think its more "efficient" to use Military personnel because they're already being paid so why not?  Seems cheaper, right?  Sure, up until the light comes on and you realize they still have to get paid and, unlike contractors the taxpayer is paying for the military lifetime retirement and medical care. Government contractors are regularly hired in place of Military personnel for many reasons one simple one of which is to free up the military personnel we have so they can go fight a war.  Go to just about any military base and you'll probably see that most of the security forces are contractors.  I went to the MacDill AFB clinic yesterday to see a doc...guess what?  Yes, he was a contractor.  Can contractors be nefarious and bribe or otherwise influence government people to gain contracts?  Sure they can, just ask Randy Cunningham...last I checked though Cunningham was in Congress, not the White House.  Every contractor related scandal I can recall (except the White House Travel Office) was related to either civilians in the Pentagon or Congress.  The only influence over the award of contracts that I recall haveing involved the White House was at the beginning of Iraqi Freedom.  Although everyone screams about Halliburton, after having dealt with them myself I'd say they were the only ones not only capable of providing the required support but were also in place since they had numerous existing contracts and personnel in the Gulf.  BTW, the existing contracts were all let under the Clinton administration.  Also, tell me this; if your house were being robbed would you want your city to spend six months renegotiating the Police force's contract or do you want them to use the one they already have?

Bottom line here Crockett is that just about anything can be "spun" to appear nefarious and underhanded, especially when the "accuser" has a motive to do it.  A missile hit the Pentagon, not a plane; the towers were wired for demolition; the US Navy shot down an airliner departing New York; Clinton killed x number of people;  Bush "knew", etc., etc., etc.  These are all sad lies and distortions for a public that seems all to willing to swallow this junk.  In the end, you have to realize that just because you disagree with a policy or decision doesn't mean the guy's a criminal.  Sometimes, good decisions are made, sometimes bad ones are, but a mistake, error in judgement, or just a decision made you don't agree with doesn't mean someone is guilty of crime or corruption.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 10:23:42 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline rpm

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2007, 10:47:45 PM »
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Originally posted by bj229r
He gets to go to all the funerals too:aok
They don't go to funerals.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2007, 10:56:01 PM »
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Originally posted by JB88
and don't even get me started on the teapot dome scandal.  

:mad:

(about as relevant as the tired old clinton arguements that party loyalists continue to dust off and pull out rather than just address the issue at hand.)


And you dont think the democrat party loyalists will be doing the exact same thing when the roles are reversed??
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Offline crockett

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2007, 10:59:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Of course, Crocket proves my point yet again.  

First, you can stop crediting me with things I didn't say.  

Second, all you're doing is the same thing some conservatives did when they tried to tie Clinton to various murders.  This is like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon stuff, you can tie anyone to anyone else if you go deep enough yet do you have any proof?  No, you don't.  

Third, the VP has absolutely nothing at all to do with letting government contracts with the Pentagon.  As a matter of fact, as the purse string holders Congress has much more to do with contracts than the Executive branch.  

Fourth, efficiency doesn't have much to do with contracts, cost does.  "Efficiency" is a relative term.  Some think its more "efficient" to use Military personnel because they're already being paid so why not?  Seems cheaper, right?  Sure, up until the light comes on and you realize they still have to get paid and, unlike contractors the taxpayer is paying for the military lifetime retirement and medical care. Government contractors are regularly hired in place of Military personnel for many reasons one simple one of which is to free up the military personnel we have so they can go fight a war.  Go to just about any military base and you'll probably see that most of the security forces are contractors.  I went to the MacDill AFB clinic yesterday to see a doc...guess what?  Yes, he was a contractor.  Can contractors be nefarious and bribe or otherwise influence government people to gain contracts?  Sure they can, just ask Randy Cunningham...last I checked though Cunningham was in Congress, not the White House.  Every contractor related scandal I can recall (except the White House Travel Office) was related to either civilians in the Pentagon or Congress.  The only influence over the award of contracts that I recall haveing involved the White House was at the beginning of Iraqi Freedom.  Although everyone screams about Halliburton, after having dealt with them myself I'd say they were the only ones not only capable of providing the required support but were also in place since they had numerous existing contracts and personnel in the Gulf.  BTW, the existing contracts were all let under the Clinton administration.  Also, tell me this; if your house were being robbed would you want your city to spend six months renegotiating the Police force's contract or do you want them to use the one they already have?

Bottom line here Crockett is that just about anything can be "spun" to appear nefarious and underhanded, especially when the "accuser" has a motive to do it.  A missile hit the Pentagon, not a plane; the towers were wired for demolition; the US Navy shot down an airliner departing New York; Clinton killed x number of people;  Bush "knew", etc., etc., etc.  These are all sad lies and distortions for a public that seems all to willing to swallow this junk.  In the end, you have to realize that just because you disagree with a policy or decision doesn't mean the guy's a criminal.  Sometimes, good decisions are made, sometimes bad ones are, but a mistake, error in judgement, or just a decision made you don't agree with doesn't mean someone is guilty of crime or corruption.


So you are going to sit there and try to say having ex political officials on your board of directors and as spokesmen, isn't going to help get contracts? I guess Halliburton KBR and co should quit wasting all that money paying guys like George Bush Sr. to bee spoksmen.

I guess they just hire these guys because they love our country so much and hate to see an ex govt worker out of a job. :aok
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Offline bj229r

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2007, 11:05:51 PM »
muter mutter clicked on wrong thingie
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Offline bj229r

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2007, 11:06:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
They don't go to funerals.


Hey, if Cheney runs the country, he can go to all the funerals he wants to:aok
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Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2007, 06:08:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
So you are going to sit there and try to say having ex political officials on your board of directors and as spokesmen, isn't going to help get contracts? I guess Halliburton KBR and co should quit wasting all that money paying guys like George Bush Sr. to bee spoksmen.

I guess they just hire these guys because they love our country so much and hate to see an ex govt worker out of a job. :aok
No, I didn't say that.  I said that there are contractors that will buy influence, it's just that there is absolutely no indication at all that Cheney had anything to do with it.  If you have anything, something other than the six degrees of Dick Cheney routine, then put it out, I'll listen.

P.S.  Regarding your comment about love of country, well to tell you the truth most of the contractors out there actually are motivated by a desire to help.  Most contractors are former employees of the government including a huge number that are former military.  Sure, some just see a great opportunity to make money but for many of these (I would even go so far as saying the majority) going into contracting is a way to continue to serve even after their military careers are over.  Not being sappy here, it's just the truth.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 06:14:27 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline crockett

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2007, 12:19:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
No, I didn't say that.  I said that there are contractors that will buy influence, it's just that there is absolutely no indication at all that Cheney had anything to do with it.  If you have anything, something other than the six degrees of Dick Cheney routine, then put it out, I'll listen.
 


Did I say Cheney himself? I said the Bush admin.. in which Cheney happened to be the CEO of Halliburton after leaving his Dept of Defense position. Of course George Bush Jr's daddy just happens to be a "paid" spokesmen for Halliburton.

Humm No need for lobbyists when you can hire ex-politicians and get all their govt ties, or better yet put your own guys right in the govt you want to buy.

Na it's all on the up and up I mean no one in our govt would ever do anything wrong.. right?

I guess Cheney didn't do this either.

Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root is paid $9 million by the Pentagon (under Cheney's direction as Secretary of Defense) to produce a classified report detailing how private companies (like itself) could provide logistical support for American troops in potential war zones around the world. Shortly after this report, the Pentagon awards Brown & Root a five-year contract to provide logistics for the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers. The General Accounting Office estimates that through this contract, Brown & Root makes overall $2.2 billion in revenue in the Balkans.

Too make it short, Cheney as SoD used his position to pay a company 9 million dollars to do a report telling the govt if it was profitable to give that company more contracts.

That's like putting a cookie jar in front of a little kid, then going away and telling him he can't touch the cookies. Think about it and put respect for your country above political BS.

Maybe you should read a little bit at  http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/chronology.html
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Offline JB88

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2007, 04:16:28 PM »
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
And you dont think the democrat party loyalists will be doing the exact same thing when the roles are reversed??


most definately.  

but that is neither relevant nor useful to the question at hand.

people who bring up clinton over and over again when the conversation is about the current administration must think that a good defense strategy for a murderer would be to say..."well that guy last week killed somebody too - so lets all talk about that."

i can't wait for this cycle of our nation's history to get over with.  it's become an abominable joke on so many levels.  

it's not even about the issues anymore...it's all about drama.
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Offline Mace2004

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2007, 04:31:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
Did I say Cheney himself? I said the Bush admin.. in which Cheney happened to be the CEO of Halliburton after leaving his Dept of Defense position. Of course George Bush Jr's daddy just happens to be a "paid" spokesmen for Halliburton.

Humm No need for lobbyists when you can hire ex-politicians and get all their govt ties, or better yet put your own guys right in the govt you want to buy.

Na it's all on the up and up I mean no one in our govt would ever do anything wrong.. right?

I guess Cheney didn't do this either.

Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root is paid $9 million by the Pentagon (under Cheney's direction as Secretary of Defense) to produce a classified report detailing how private companies (like itself) could provide logistical support for American troops in potential war zones around the world. Shortly after this report, the Pentagon awards Brown & Root a five-year contract to provide logistics for the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers. The General Accounting Office estimates that through this contract, Brown & Root makes overall $2.2 billion in revenue in the Balkans.

Too make it short, Cheney as SoD used his position to pay a company 9 million dollars to do a report telling the govt if it was profitable to give that company more contracts.

That's like putting a cookie jar in front of a little kid, then going away and telling him he can't touch the cookies. Think about it and put respect for your country above political BS.

Maybe you should read a little bit at  http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/chronology.html
Actually, you yet again prove my point.  

You seem to be overly impressed that a company makes a lot of money.  When you consider the number of people they employ and the services it provides that number is reasonable.  I can understand that when you read large numbers your sense of perspective may be a bit skewed because the true scope of what the US government spends is unbelievable but think of these numbers. From personal experience I can testify to the fact that Cheney cancelled production of the F-14D.  The development contract alone was $1 billion and Grumman lost out on $15 billion in sales.  This ended up basically putting the entire aircraft production and development side of the company (yes, they qualify as an evil Government Contractor) out of work. They closed down Calverton Long Island, the development site Grumman used and most of their people were fired.  I have no idea how many billions of dollars that really cost Grumman but, after probably 80 years they no longer make Navy airplanes.  Does that help put a little perspective on the relative importance of a $9 million dollar study?  Hell, I had an $11 million budget for six months of F-14D OPEVAL and I spent almost $3 million in my squadron just for gas every quarter.  The fact that B&R made $2 billion over the life of the contract means the taxpayer was probably saved twice that.  Probably a pretty good deal.  

Again, and here's where you prove my point again.  The fact that Cheney was SECDEF at the time this particular contract went out means what exactly???  As I've said several times, you can spin anything to give an air of suspicion and appearance of corruption and again, I'll repeat that it does happen but do you have any proof of any malfeasance on Cheney's part?  Any indictments?  Special prosecutors?  FBI investigations? DOD IG investigations?  Uhhhhh...no.  The Pentagon was ordered BY CONGRESS to find less expensive ways to provide non-combatant services and allow Congress to cut the military further.  This was all part of the "peace dividend" that the Dems loved so dearly, not an insideous scheme by Dick Cheney.

As a final note, maybe you should try to put respect for individuals above your political BS.  You know almost nothing at all about what you're talking about yet you continue to do it.  Again, find some other justification for your accusations rather than the six degrees of Dick Cheney stuff.
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Offline bj229r

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2007, 04:53:53 PM »
Wish we could get those 3 infantry divisions back....damn never occurred to me about Grumman---all the way back to the Wildcat and further, I'd guess. Probably never come back
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Offline crockett

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« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2007, 05:11:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Actually, you yet again prove my point.  

You seem to be overly impressed that a company makes a lot of money.  


No I tend to be overly un-impressed at a company whom has been caught several times over charging our govt for services which costs me as a tax payer money.

I'm un-impressed at a company whom has had a gravy ride and has made billions on backs of the tax payers of this country. Then has the gull to move it's head quarters to Dubai so it can get out of paying taxes on those very earnings.

As far as Grumman.. contracts get cut and added all the time. Difference is, in the Aviation sector there tends to be competitive bidding between the different companies whom supply our military needs. It's not one big company that runs everything and has a monopoly.

When it comes to the other end. It's all halliburton and it's child companies, there is really no direct competition. Which is a very big diffrence in how things are done.
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Offline bustr

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which branch of governement is cheney in again?
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2007, 05:50:40 PM »
Mace,

Didn't DiFi recently bail from an appropriations commite because it was about to come out that her husband's contracting firm had made billions in direct government contracts while she sat on the commite? No hue and cry from the media.

No grass roots conservitive screeching for DiFi's head and her husband hung from the town square. And we the little people paid for it with our taxes. DiFi and her husband Lewinskied the American people and crokett wants Cheney hung by his goodies for conspiricy theories.

I bet crokett wouldnt be happy even if Bush and Cheney invited Lewinksi to the white house to give them both a Lewinski and then held a rose garden interview to tell the world they are now as good a men as Clinton while holding up a stained dress. He'd probably want Bush empeached for malfesence, lewd behavior and adutry while in office and Cheney jailed for sexual harrassment, sexual deviency and lacivious behavior in the work place.......:lol
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