Author Topic: For all you voters... (Read 5846 times)

B3YT · « **Reply #60 on:** July 17, 2007, 04:27:13 PM »

the mossie did . it made night bombing more accurate. diverted troops and forces to try to counter the Mossie raids. Had a huge impact to german moral . help bomb shipping (very important) trains (very important) Command and Control post (very very important) and could do so with out need of escort. (freeing them up for the USAAF's 8th airforce [very very very important]) . could be fitted with a huge range of munisions. A squadron of mossies could wipe out freight yards in minutes . That alone could change the area on a tactical level.

T99LMG · « **Reply #61 on:** July 17, 2007, 05:45:22 PM »

Unlike all of you "Mossie" Fans, I have to go with Viking. For such a shortly used aircraft, The Me410 was great for the time it was used. Try looking at that and the amount of kills that the "mossie" made in 6 years!

Viking · « **Reply #62 on:** July 17, 2007, 06:58:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by B3YT
the mossie did...

It most certainly did not. You think the allies would have lost the war if not for the Mossie? Delusions.

Serenity · « **Reply #63 on:** July 17, 2007, 08:09:42 PM »

God I love how off topic this got...

Karnak · « **Reply #64 on:** July 17, 2007, 08:11:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by T99LMG
Unlike all of you "Mossie" Fans, I have to go with Viking. For such a shortly used aircraft, The Me410 was great for the time it was used. Try looking at that and the amount of kills that the "mossie" made in 6 years!

It was so great they canceled it in August, 1944.

Mossie wasn't active for 6 years of WWII. Fighter Mossies were active from 1942 through the end of the war.

As to the Me410, the most telling thing is that Goering had it, yet was still envious of the Mossie and wanted it for Germany. If the Me410 had been all that, as you and Viking claim, he wouldn't have had that issue at all.

The ~1,200 Me410s did not, contrary to Viking's ridiculous claims, have a very significant impact on WWII, let alone a larger impact that the ~2,700 Mosquito FB.VIs or the ~7,700 Mosquitoes in total.

Viking is apparently a Luftwaffe fanatic and so far as I can tell, German = superior to him.

The Me410 is a gorgeous aircraft and a versatile one. I'd love to see it in AH, but it was not what he is claiming. The Mosquito, which was superior to the Me410, wasn't even as good as his Me410 claims.

Viking · « **Reply #65 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:01:35 AM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
It was so great they canceled it in August, 1944.

Under the "emergency fighter program" almost all non-single engined fighters, bombers and other aircraft were canceled. Had nothing to do with them not being any good; Germany desperately needed fighters.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
The ~1,200 Me410s did not, contrary to Viking's ridiculous claims, have a very significant impact on WWII, let alone a larger impact that the ~2,700 Mosquito FB.VIs or the ~7,700 Mosquitoes in total.

I have never claimed the Me 410 had a "very significant impact on WWII". You're a liar. And again, there were only 6710 Mosquitoes made during WWII. Again you're a liar.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Viking is apparently a Luftwaffe fanatic and so far as I can tell, German = superior to him.

If so, then I make a poor fanatic ... seeing how I've stated that the P-38 was superior to the Me 410. I must be the only Luftwaffe fanatic Ami-fanboi.

But when we're talking about fanatics how about a Mossie fanatic who derails a whole thread just because he can't accept that the Me 410 was faster? You started this debacle.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 is a gorgeous aircraft and a versatile one. I'd love to see it in AH, but it was not what he is claiming. The Mosquito, which was superior to the Me410, wasn't even as good as his Me410 claims.

All sources I have found says the Me 410 had a top speed of 488 mph. That's the only performance related figure I've mentioned in this thread. However it is refreshing to see you finally admit the Mosquito wasn't as good.

Viking · « **Reply #66 on:** July 18, 2007, 04:26:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
All sources I have found says the Me 410 had a top speed of 488 mph.

Luftwaffefighters.co.uk actually states a different number: 629km/h (391mph) at 8100m (26,575ft) for the Me 410A.

I'm looking forward to reading my new book, and I'm curious what data i has on performance.

B3YT · « **Reply #67 on:** July 18, 2007, 06:41:48 AM »

erm you can't undertand sentences do you . According to the rules of grammer he is stating that your 488mph(??) me410 was not as good as the mossie . he then states that the mossie was not as good as your alleged 410 was.

stats for DH mossie IV bomber
DH MOSQUITO B.IV SERIES II

wingspan: 16.51 meters
wing area: 33.54 sq. meters
length: 12.43 meters
height: 4.65 meters
empty weight: 5,942 kg
max loaded weight: 10,150 kg
maximum speed: 612 KPH (380 MPH)
service ceiling: 9,450 meters
range: 1,965 kilometers

DH MOSQUITO PR.34

wingspan: 16.51 meters
wing area: 33.54 sq. meters
length: 12.65 meters
height: 4.65 meters
empty weight: 7,545 kilograms
max loaded weight: 11,565 kilograms (25,500 pounds) maximum
speed: 685 KPH (425 MPH / 370 KT)
service ceiling: 13,100 meters (43,000 feet)
range: 5,375 kilometers

how good was it?
"The Mosquito ended the war with the lowest loss rate of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service during WWII. The last RAF Mosquito to remain in operational service was retired in 1956."

Viking · « **Reply #68 on:** July 18, 2007, 07:14:56 AM »

We were talking about the FB Mk. VI fighter/bomber ... you know, the one we have in the game.

As for reading comprehension, I've already stated that the high-altitude bomber and recon (PR) Mossies were faster than the Me 410. If you can't be bothered to read the whole thread, then perhaps you should not bother posting as well.

Viking · « **Reply #69 on:** July 18, 2007, 07:17:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by B3YT
how good was it?
"The Mosquito ended the war with the lowest loss rate of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service during WWII. The last RAF Mosquito to remain in operational service was retired in 1956."

Both the Spitfire and Bf 109 served longer than that. The Bf 109 was even still in production in 1956. Not impressed.

Martyn · « **Reply #70 on:** July 18, 2007, 07:42:08 AM »

If we get the He-111 in AH, then presumably it'd appear later in CT - which means we can get BOB scenarios with lots of He-111s in formation over the UK.

Tally-ho!

Angus · « **Reply #71 on:** July 18, 2007, 07:44:15 AM »

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Originally posted by Viking
Btw. Angus, I just bought this book:

It was published in April and is supposed to be the ultimate resource on the Me 210/410 weapon systems and many variations. I'm all giddy just thinking about it!

Did you read it yet?
(DROOLING)

Anyway, as for the Mossie, which I have not studied a lot, - The impression was always that it was a very fast bird.
Now, the cruise is at some 300 mph, - could that have something to do with it. That is indeed a very high cruise speed.
Acceleration also?
Missions flown in the most favourable altitude?

Then on to anecdotes, - the enjoyable part.
An old P51 jock actually told me this, his P51 vs:
Tempests: faster
Mossies: faster
Spitfires: slower
109/190: slightly slower
262's: quite faster but not much to worry about.
V-1 : Slightly faster normally, but with a little alt, catchable. Mossies and Temps would catch them in a flat-out run, P51 not.
Griffon Spits: Faster. could run down them V-1's too.
V-2. Yeacchhh. got to kill them on the ground, and the ground around is covered with flak batteries.

Anyway, I think you can never completely ignore anecdotes and as well as combat reports, especially in cases where actual tests are scarce or non-existent.
Also, one needs to look better into loadouts.
Well, off, - got to read up. Will bring a mossie quote from a German pilot if I find it.

Viking · « **Reply #72 on:** July 18, 2007, 07:57:40 AM »

No, I ordered it on Amazon, so I expect to get it around Friday/Saturday. Can't wait!

Angus · « **Reply #73 on:** July 18, 2007, 09:42:44 AM »

Let us know will you

By the way, there was a documentary on the HC (I think) some years ago about the German attempts for the perfect "zerstörer" or some title in that direction. Saw only a part of it, but it had interesting film clips.
Apparently they were trying out wood as construction material, but didn't fare to well.
The only thing I remember about the 210 and 410 out of my head is that they were considered failiures. Delays, mech problems, and then when they arrived, they were not up to the superiority they were meant for.
BTW, I am reading an article of the 410 in "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" (Autographed by Rall, wanna buy?). Anyway, it gives a tale about teething problems (210= terrible handling and tendency to spin), and once they were about in numbers as the 410's were finally about in some numbers, they were no match for the Allied escorts. Fine and well gunned up, yes, and top speed listed as (410A-2/U2) 315 mph SL, 388 mph at 22K, 373 mph at 26K. Takeoff power (DB 603A) is 1750 hp per engine.
Compare that to the pressurized, early 1944 Mosquito XVI, cookie-carrying aircraft (bulged bomb-bay), - because of similar power, - a little lower 1680 Hp but 2-stage Merlin 72/73 you have 419 mph at 28,5K.
How's that?

Viking · « **Reply #74 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:20:30 AM »

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Originally posted by Angus
Let us know will you

Of course!

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Compare that to the pressurized, early 1944 Mosquito XVI, cookie-carrying aircraft (bulged bomb-bay), - because of similar power, - a little lower 1680 Hp but 2-stage Merlin 72/73 you have 419 mph at 28,5K.
How's that?

Why should we compare the Me 410 to a bomber Mossie that has a clean nose with no gun muzzles protruding out into the airflow, or gun ports, or shell casing ejection ports, or added weight of guns? And the argument was for a 1943 aircraft (at the time of the 410’s introduction), not 1944.