Why is Allies vs Axis always empty ???

[dedalos]

Originally posted by 1cajun
Please, read a little history on combat tactics, take some responsibility for your own SA and fly a smart fight.  A lot of the regulars are great 1 v 1 pilots, I have been shot down by them.  But, if a wing pair comes in or a squad shows up they lose their advantage, are no longer kings of the sandbox and the negative comments on 200 start.

Lets put it this way.  It is not a history leson.  It is a game.  As oldman said, it is supposed to be fun and somewhat fair.  War is non of the above.  I love it when a wing pair shows up.  Thats perfectly fine because when they do, I know why they are there. That is actually fun.  When the second guy shows up in the midle of a fight is different.  It is not SA, it is not history, team work, or what ever lame excuse you want to use.  It is just lame.  Don't forget, this is a place with 6 guys in it most of the time.  In your opinion puting 5 vs 1 would be historic and therefore fun? Or maybe my SA is off?
Next time you pick off someone with your histiryc wingman tactiks and you see somethign on 200, before you reply with your lame excuses think.  Think and then type:

 200: Thank you!  Thank you for not being a lamer like me

Because if that guy wanted to fly like you, you would  have ended up with all 6 guys on the same country flying the historyc way.  After all, not every flight in WWII ended with a fight, so mayby flying around for an hour with no red guys will be fun for you.  I think Ill try it too.  Ill set up a recon mission for Saturday.  We will fly at 30K taking pics and return to base after an hour

[Toad]

Just remember the basic attitude of the average AH player.

"When four of us jump you, we're practicing historical paired wingman tactics. When four of you jump me, you're a bunch of gangbanging SOBs."

[Laurie]

Originally posted by Nilsen
What would be fun if it ever could be arranged was if one big squad "challenged" or invited another big squad to meet in AvA for some fun and they could both bring as many walk-ons from outside the squad as they could find.

Set a time and date and then take it from there. When people then log on and see alot of others in the AvA they may also pop in and the ball is rolling. Im sure there are enough large squads that would be interested in having some fun in AvA. After an hour or so they could switch sides and start over.

Nilsen youve struck gold

We could have squads signing up and commited, thier CO choosing a permanent plane which they could learn to fly long term, dogging other squads in a classic historical scenario.

[1Duke1]

Originally posted by Gumbeau
The reason folks don't go there is pretty simple.

The people who have gained control over the AvA want a very specific set of behaviors that doesn't appeal to very many people.

Anyone who behaves outside the set is encouraged to stay away.

 Who are these "people"?  I have read numerous generalizations stating where "they" and "them" are ruining the arena without much information to back it up.


I've always had the attitude that if I die flying online it is because I made a mistake.

The AvA 'grognards' have the attitude that death is caused by deviations from the rules of 'fair play'

 Why do people keep bringing up "rules"?  Can someone please point out where anyone has been ejected for breaking these so called "rules"?  There is some unwritten ettiquete that people are requested to follow when in the arena, and has been there since I started flying this game over 6 years ago.  But if you blatantly disregard that ettiquette, you are going to get called out for it.  Again, it's your choice as to how you act in the arena.

I've seen this mindset before. The guys that want to duel but never want to face someone in the same aircraft type. What other reason can they have for so many 'rules' and NOT be in the Dueling Arena?

The supposed rules are all cover for various deficiencies.

And I've seen this mindset before also, someone who has no idea what they are talking about.  Again, there are no rules.  I would bet you that 99.9% of the time, you ask any of the regulars if they want to DA, they will say yes.  But be warned, you might be biting off more than you can chew.

Cherry Picking....... Like I said before the US Navy calls this Loose Deuce tactics. One guy makes the bandit predictable and his wingman comes unseen and kills him. I fly Loose Deuce all the time. It is extremely effective against bandits with poor SA. AvA outlaws poor SA by calling it 'Cherry Picking'.

No, cherry picking is definitely NOT Loose deuce tactics.  The loose deuce formation is used when in a 2v1 situation where the lead is engaged with the bandit, and wing flies a loose formation slightly above and behind, off the left or right wing, depending on which way the fight is turning.  In this position, wing can ensure his lead's six is clear by watching for additional bandits, and is close enough to takeover the engagement in case lead has to pull-off.  What you describe is just plain'ol cherry picking that takes no skill or effort whatsoever.

No Head Ons.......It takes two to head on. If one guy is trying to avoid the HO it aint no HO no MO. I welcome guys trying to HO. It tells me immediately they have limited understanding of ACM. I know how to avoid and turn it to my advantage. In the AvA, they make rules agin it because they don't know how to defeat it.

 Again there are no rules against HOing.  HOing is a topic that is probably just as old as any topic concerning sheep in the online-airsim world, and every opinion is different.  So I will just point out that again, if you HO, expect to be called out for it.

Alt Monkey.......... Air Combat is a 3 dimensional world. It is difficult for many to effectively operate in all three dimensions. By creating a rule to limit altitude the third dimension is taken away, especially for later in the war. The fights all degenerate into low altitude circle jerks, easy on the SA and favoring the point and shoot style of flying.

 This statement makes me believe that you have never been involved in a good 1v1, 2v1, or furball down on the deck.  Again, no rules.  But why would you want to tool around at 8-10k, when the rest of the arena is 3-4k below you?  Now that being said, there have been nights when fights have been in the 10-15k alt range, usually depends on the setup.  Again, again....fly way up there looking for the easy pick,  and expect to get called out. [\B]

Gang Bangin........ There is a reason they are called Air Forces. They are not an army of one. If you insist on flying on the deck and getting anchored you are going to see the rest of the home team show up to wipe the floor with you. You should have made a plan to escape other than yelling "Thats not fair". Savlan's example of a Martial Arts movie is great. You aren't Jet Li surrounded by 30 guys with swords who wait patiently so you can finish them off one by one. You get surrounded by 30 guys with swords, you are sushi.

 Happens at any altitude.  The question I would ask, is why would 3-4 or more people want to chase one??  I think where you will hear the most gnashing of teeth on this is when a 1v1,2v1 turns into a 4-6v1...that is a gang-bang, and is a true example of folks with little skill or ACM ability.

When I came to AH I was hoping the AvA would a place where you could find historical flying, a place to re-create some of the classics from history. Instead I found a Dueling Arena with lots of rules and very little that encouraged teamwork or realistic tactics or flying styles.

 What is your ingame handle?  I don't remember seeing you in there.  When did you start flying in the arena?  Are you one of those who spend 15-20 minutes in the arena for the first time, don't like it, and then come here to the BB and jump on the bandwagon of the other 15-20 minuters who say they don't like it because it's everyone else's fault???

This arena is what you make it.  There is no "they" or "them" controling the arena to make your life miserable, or make you fly a certain way.  If you do certain things, most likely you will be called out for it.  At that point, you can do what you want, its a game and its your money.  If the commentary gets derogatory, or out of line, and a staffer is not on, then film/screenshot it and send it to one of us, or HTC.  

[dedalos]

 These post are killing me.  Thank you guys.  Really

What rules are you people talking about?  The only rule is that if you go in there HOing and picking expect to be called a HOer and a picker   If that keeps you away from there, oh well, I sad now

Do you also leave the MA when you are called that there?

[475FG Savlan]

How exactly would you define the word RULES??

If someone behaves in a fashion that irritates/annoys others, or otherwise goes against the 'norms' of a controlled setting and gets 'called out' for it ( and according to posts here, should expect to be called out for such behavior ) then isnt that breaking some 'rule', written, imaginary or otherwise?

If there is no rules, then why should anyone 'expect' to be called out on anything? Are there rules or not? If not, then everyone should just STFU and fly.

IF its ettiquite you are enforcing...when exactly did the arena become manned by a flight of Amy Vanderbilts?

Rules, ettiquite, you are just playing semantics.

Fact of the matter is just like Baskin Robbins ice cream, HTC provides many flavors of air combat. Not everyone likes the same flavors.

Now we can tell each other how good our favorite flavors taste, and invite each other to try some or our ice cream....and have a ice cream party.  The more the merrier.  Or, you can be a brat and when someone goes in to take a taste of your flavor, ya smush the cone in the new kids face.

Just dont be surprised when no one comes to your next party.

It amazes me that people pay to play in a MMOG - a massively multiplayer online game - and are unhappy to have to deal with multiple players!  Sounds like they prefer small, controlled envorinments - like those provided by a box sim, or a private server game- not a subscription based server hosted PUBLIC game.

But some have elected themselves virtual 'Vipers', enforcing the Top Gun RoE - 'this is the hard deck, this is the alt, climb no higher, dont enter fights without reservations.....and while they may not be abusive and warrant ratting out to HTC with screenshots and email, just like a little gnat in your face they become annoying enough that you just leave.

If you go back and read some posts here, there are AvA regulars that openly prefer the small attendance - in fact someone said they are happy with 10 players - sounds almost like a H2H room to me.

Judging from the tone of such posts, it seems we have answered the question that this thread originally posed - Why is AvA always empty? - Because the regulars perfer it that way, and do what they can to make it less than hospitable to newcomers, or anyone who doesnt play by the rules..er.....follow the etiquitte of the arena.

Now, on what side of the dish does the salad fork go again?

[dedalos]

Originally posted by 475FG Savlan

If there is no rules, then why should anyone 'expect' to be called out on anything? Are there rules or not? If not, then everyone should just STFU and fly.
 

Because if you cherry pick, you are a cherry picker. Why get upset if called that?   Just say, yes I am, STFU and fly

[475FG Savlan]

Why get upset if you are called a cherry picker?

Well, then..why does someone get upset if you are cherry picked?? And then take the time to type it over & over? Waaa waaa waaa?

Just say to yourself...I must be a cherry!

Just STFU and fly:)

[dedalos]

Originally posted by 475FG Savlan
Why get upset if you are called a cherry picker?

Well, then..why does someone get upset if you are cherry picked?? And then take the time to type it over & over? Waaa waaa waaa?

Just say to yourself...I must be a cherry!

Just STFU and fly:)

It only takes a second to type it and you did interupt a good fight, most likely.  I, personally play the game on line for the fights.  So, your lameness does effect me.  Me calling you what you are on 200 does not stop you from doing what you want.  See?  You can stop me from having fun, I can't do anything to you.  You choose to cherry pick or vulch online instead of doing it off line.  Why?  The only reason I can think of is that you like being called what you are on 200 and I provide that service  to you free of charge.  Yeah yeah I know, no reason to say thank you.  Any time bud

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Gumbeau, toonces3, 1cajun, 475FG Savlan
Waaaa, AvA sucks because Vets fairplay is unfair

Gazillion complaints from gazillion guys about MA. Unfair game play, lack of etiquete, ganging, cherry picking, HOs, etc.

They want something different, better. They find their way into AvA. Then they whine how it sucks because it is NOT like MA.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Gazillion complaints from gazillion guys about MA. Unfair game play, lack of etiquete, ganging, cherry picking, HOs, etc.

They want something different, better. They find their way into AvA. Then they whine how it sucks because it is NOT like MA.

[1cajun]

1Duke1,

Before trying to explain what tactics are you should read a little.  Shaw's book would be a good start.

Loose Deuce - is the "tag team" style of fighting, where one fighter is "in" on the bogie. His job is to maneuver for a shot, and failing this, to bleed the enemy's energy or force him into a disadvantageous position. He then calls, "Out" and disengages, hopefully up, to conserver energy for the next pass, if needed. The other pilot, formerly the "out" or "perch" pilot can then dive in and engage the bogie while the other pilot climbs to regain energy, regain SA and perform the duties of the perch. The idea is usually for only one plane to be committed at one time; the other, on the perch, is there to ensure the SA for the entire pair and to watch the 6 of the "in" pilot, who can concentrate his full attention on shooting the bogie.The planes continue alternating positions until the bogie is killed or the overall tactical situation changes. At that point, it usually becomes necessary for the pair to either escape or get away from the action to regain their SA...and then onto the next victim.

What you described is a welded wing.  It is very interesting if you follow the course this post has taken.  You have a virtual verbal dogfight here.  

On the one side you have people who understand combat tactics, historical planesets and also see the AvA as an arena that could become a great place and be much different than the MA.

Then there are others who have soon reverted to accusations, taunts and determining that the other side is lame.  Much the same as what happens regularly on CH 200.

If the numbers are usually 4 or 6 then I suggest you take advantage of the 8 person arena.  You can become King of the Sandbox and nobody will bother you.  The problem is that you would like to take advantage of historical planesets and bigger maps so that you can have close 1v1 or 2v2 matchups.  I'll have to check, did the makers of the AvA arena disable bombers and base captures?  No, I think they had more in mind for the arena than for it to become a personal dueling arena.  

The attitudes of a few and their propensity for verbal assault on CH 200 have kept the arena numbers low.  1v1 or 2v2 and they are great pilots.  Bring in a 3rd and they have to become aware of their own SA and they run into trouble and revert to the verbal attack when the iron attack fails.

You fly around and look for a bandit to engage.  You see one and you have the advantageous position.  Some see this and immediately think, "Let me pull into him hard and force the HO merge.  Then I can extend away and improve my position."  It's another safety blanket.  They should change the code in the game and have a giant white flag pop out of the plane when you are in trouble.  If you are in a 1v1 and lose the advantage, say someone shoots off your flaps or oils your engine, do you break off and let him rtb?  Why finish him?   What's the fun of that?

No, this thread has brought up a lot of good discussion and ideas and sadly it has encouraged a few to treat is as CH200 because they have no desire to see the arena grow beyond their own personal dueling arena.

[storch]

cajun the fact that he's whiney tard aside 1Duke1 flew F14s for living.  I would dare say he could give us all a tutorial on team flying.

[Vudak]

Yeah 1Duke1, you newbie...  Why don't you read a little!?

1cajun,

I think what you're implying by "loose duce" is:

Vudak goes and engages enemy 1 v 1, turns, burns, E-Fights, whatever, bleeds his E out.

Enemy might be able to beat Vudak, but has no defense against someone else.

1Cajun comes screaming in to the "rescue," blasting poor defenseless enemy (let's just call him "Wounded Mouse") out of the skies.

Well that sounds like a blast  ...  For anyone in the situation

You call people out, saying "1v1 or 2v2 they're great pilots, but bring in a 3rd..."

Well, I'll tell ya what...  1 v 3 where all are pressing the attack, you'll find these guys are great sticks too.  It's when it's 1 v 2 knife fighting and the 3rd hero sulks in the background, waiting for the 1's E to be bled and then comes screaming back at 300mph vs the 1's 110, and cherry picks him, that's when these sticks don't seem so "great," and quite frankly, neither would Lev.

That has nothing to do with some lack of SA.  That has everything to do with "nothing I can do about it except run."  Maybe you'd prefer that's what the 1 did though, right?  Just break away and run a few sectors like in the MA?  That is, after all, a pretty historical tactic?

Again, sounds like a BLAST

[Shifty]

Originally posted by 1cajun
1Duke1,

Before trying to explain what tactics are you should read a little.  Shaw's book would be a good start.

Cajun you stepped in it there bud. Duke has been a real fighter pilot, not just playing one on the intardnet.