It's Like the Hydra

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
and if they wont change, they will die..


Even the trees in the forest are fighting each other for sunlight. life is conflict by nature so we may as well be good at it, eh?

We didn't get to this point, in the life of America, by taking the easy way out when the going got rough.

Equally important, we will cease to be what America stands for by becoming like them.

This is why our path is harder... than the path of a Hitler lead Nazi Germany or a Stalin lead Soviet Union.

The German people are good people as are the Russian people.

Democracy and the Rule of Law is the difference.

TIGERESS

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by lazs2
second that... u should read the PM's I get.

tigress.. debate with you is the hydra.   you are all over the map.. show that one of your main points is total bs and you pretend you never said it and go into song or something while going on a whole other tangent.   or seven.

I took one of your points (not counting the hydrogen one) and explained patiently how it was not workable.. what we are doing is workable.

shall we take your other points and laugh at them?  I don't think anyone took them seriously tho.

"wake up"??  are you kidding?  from the start I have said we will have to fight these guys sooner or latter and there or here.. they are 9th century and 9th century is all about conquer and enslave.   Hell... if you go to communism.. it is 19th century but still...  conquer and enslave.  

We made mistakes with them..  Patton was right..we should have kept on going and beaten russia.   So what?  in the end we won anyway.

we keep winning because our system is superior and... we are the most moral superpower the world has ever known.

I am an optimist... we may not always be the most moral superpower the world has ever known but it will be because an even more moral one takes our place.. not because we will lose our way.

your depressing scenario depends on communism and islam remaining steeped in the past and the world simply accepting that type of morality.

I say.. they will change...not us.

lazs

You should see the PMs I get!!! hahahahaha

You simply dismissed item number 0. That was totally in character for you.
You also have a habit of declaring your opinions as facts. lol
You have a pattern of attacking and dismissal, not objectively discussing.
You often try to intimidate me; you are not the first guy to try that and you wont be the last.

I want to get along with you and discuss our differences. What do you want?

We will shift to liquid Hydrogen as a primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible, regardless of your dismissal as unworkable.

The issue is not IF... it is WHEN. It is in the national interests to do so.

Patton had a point about Stalin and his USSR but Patton was narrow viewed.

He was a professional warrior and knew he was out of the war business when WWII concluded. A lot of people would have died needlessly had he been allowed to start a war with the USSR.

With that said... Patton was a great patriot and general and hero; he was also his own worst enemy and he knew it.

TIGERESS

PS: See what the US Department of Energy says about Hydrogen Fuel: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/

an excerpt: "Hydrogen and fuel cells have the potential to solve several major challenges facing America today: dependence on petroleum imports, poor air quality, and greenhouse gas emissions.

The Hydrogen, Fuel Cells & Infrastructure Technologies Program is working with partners to accelerate the development and successful market introduction of these technologies."

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Tigeress
We didn't get to this point, in the life of America, by taking the easy way out when the going got rough.

Equally important, we will cease to be what America stands for by becoming like them.

This is why our path is harder... than the path of a Hitler lead Nazi Germany or a Stalin lead Soviet Union.

The German people are good people as are the Russian people.

Democracy and the Rule of Law is the difference.

TIGERESS

I agree with you that your ideals are amoung the best in the world to be sure ma'am, yet, youre talking to the wrong guy about politics. I despise and shun the concept that any of us are moving in the right direction not even the good ol US of A. i really cant believe in anything the human race has accomplished since the peaks of Egyptian civilization four thousand years ago being anything other than self obsesive and devolutionary procrastination.  

the way we say " oo we are right and we are true, we are not bad guys like the nazi leaders." but hey, nazi germany would have been a world wide government overnight had they tried the move even two hundred years before. all the great leaders of history were fiends. just because we now claim not to be harsh in rule this means that thousands of years of human existance were lived sub standard to ours now?

all of us stupid humans running around thinking how important we all are when really we are the same as bacteria multiplying in a petry dish.

you know why nothing else comes to our planet? cos its infected with us lot.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
all of us stupid humans running around thinking how important we all are when really we are the same as bacteria multiplying in a petry dish.

Bluebonnets are a wildflower that flourish in the spring in Texas. It's not uncommon to see a car parked on the side of a highway with people out taking pictures. My comment that viewed from a wider angle and broader time span these flowers seem much like mold growing on old bread rarely receives much appreciation.

[B@tfinkV]

honesty is not the best way to make friends and influence people. funny how some people will always choose to be offended by honesty rather than find humour or seek a real answer to what bothers them and at the same time will happily lap up the act of a dishonest person without questioning it at all.

[NoBaddy]

I did read about he first 1/3rd of the posts in this thread. It seemed to be getting a bit redundant at that point.

This war is different from any war the USA has ever been involved in. We are trying to view it as a secular war, it isn't. It is a religious war.

What we really have to understand is that these people are extremists. There simply is no way to negotiate with them. Attempts to do so are seen as weakness on our part and merely encourage them to continue to do what they have been doing. Every news story demanding that we pull out or insisting that we are losing is merely encouraging them to redouble their efforts.

Their stated goals are the death or enslavement of anyone that does not believe they way they believe. How do you negotiate with that? While I do not believe that invading Iraq was a good choice, it has been done and to back out without succeeding there would be catastrophic. If you think that our being in Iraq is creating more terrorists, just think about great their recruiting efforts would be if we lose.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
I agree with you that your ideals are amoung the best in the world to be sure ma'am, yet, youre talking to the wrong guy about politics. I despise and shun the concept that any of us are moving in the right direction not even the good ol US of A. i really cant believe in anything the human race has accomplished since the peaks of Egyptian civilization four thousand years ago being anything other than self obsesive and devolutionary procrastination.  

the way we say " oo we are right and we are true, we are not bad guys like the nazi leaders." but hey, nazi germany would have been a world wide government overnight had they tried the move even two hundred years before. all the great leaders of history were fiends. just because we now claim not to be harsh in rule this means that thousands of years of human existance were lived sub standard to ours now?

all of us stupid humans running around thinking how important we all are when really we are the same as bacteria multiplying in a petry dish.

you know why nothing else comes to our planet? cos its infected with us lot.

Obviously spoken with passion.

We are flawed... the human race... all of us.

To strive for fairness and respect for people moves us from the jungle towards the Creator, IMV.

The USA is a bully... no mistaking it.

Our ideals of democracy... and striving for them, makes our country stand out from the dictatorships of the world.

Breaking our own laws in the name of "The ends justify the means" is a step away from the ideals the USA was founded upon, IMV.

That is why I believe our path is harder... and when we step off that path... we need to own up to it and get back on the path.

It is a worthy path.

TIGERESS

[MORAY37]

As for blue and red... it is a big deal.. I don't care if we "win" if that means we become more of a blue country... if a few vaporized blue countries get them to mind their own bussiness and stop making laws to take away freedom of the red areas... so be it.. it will be worth it.

I don't want to pull together with the blue people.. I don't want their idea of America.

lazs [/B]

Because freedom of speech, self expression and opinion is a bad thing.
Habeas Corpus, due process.... Bad thing.
No torture under any guise... bad thing.
Freedom from dogmatic religion in policy decisions... BAD?

Laz, leave the country or throw yourself on a Bonzai sword.  All of these things were given to this country in the Declaration and the Constitution.

I hereby annoint you Nutjob status, with all writ and privilege therein.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by NoBaddy
I did read about he first 1/3rd of the posts in this thread. It seemed to be getting a bit redundant at that point.

This war is different from any war the USA has ever been involved in. We are trying to view it as a secular war, it isn't. It is a religious war.

What we really have to understand is that these people are extremists. There simply is no way to negotiate with them. Attempts to do so are seen as weakness on our part and merely encourage them to continue to do what they have been doing. Every news story demanding that we pull out or insisting that we are losing is merely encouraging them to redouble their efforts.

Their stated goals are the death or enslavement of anyone that does not believe they way they believe. How do you negotiate with that? While I do not believe that invading Iraq was a good choice, it has been done and to back out without succeeding there would be catastrophic. If you think that our being in Iraq is creating more terrorists, just think about great their recruiting efforts would be if we lose.

The negotiating of which I spoke was not us negotiating with the Hydra.

That is folly, imv.

Rather, negotiate with our Allies on reaching a consensus on dealing with them instead of unilaterally mandating to our Allies.

We are in a catch 22, imv. We can't stop shooting them and doing so strengthens them. dang!

TIGERESS

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Neubob
The American public I still have faith in, even though they did make Walmart what it is today.

Heh. True dat. (Winces)

Originally posted by Neubob

Never imagined you were a big drinker, though, Arlo... And funny that you mentioned DC earlier on too. I've been living there on and off for the last 4 years.

I take that as an invite to booze up next time I'm up that way.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by AKIron
Make you a deal, if you can get all the GWA to completely give up using any petroleum products for a year I'll join in whatever solution they want to try. Buying carbon credits doesn't count.

Sorry, my mind-control ray is on the fritz, Fritz.

And you have the gall to challenge other's realism regarding pov. Way to play the safe bet. You'll do what you want to, others be damned anyhow.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. I would say that I haven't addressed your point because you don't have a point .. despite your scientific bumper sticker study... DC votes left and blue.

Which confirms what I stated. Which, apparently, is pointless? Less crack, more oxygen, Laz.

Originally posted by lazs2

As for blue and red... it is a big deal.. I don't care if we "win" if that means we become more of a blue country... if a few vaporized blue countries get them to mind their own bussiness and stop making laws to take away freedom of the red areas... so be it.. it will be worth it.

I don't want to pull together with the blue people.. I don't want their idea of America.

That's your hang-up. You see the world through your customized pair of hyper-"conservative" rosy red glasses which has nothing to do with what America was, is and should be but everything to do with what you imagine all such to be. And wanting to rid America of anything and everyone that doesn't have your exact same hang-ups makes you nothing more than an opinionated speedbump. The neocon movement is waning here. Sorry.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
second that... u should read the PM's I get.

Quit trying to convince everyone how popular you are, Laz.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Tigeress
I have only come up with a few ideas...

I am not so bold as to pronounce them as a solution, rather ideas for discussion on solution.

So everyone feel totally free to shoot as many holes in them as you possibly can. Simple dismissal is not a discussion.

Timetable: 7-10 years

0. Kick-start a full swing to Liquid Hydrogen as our primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible.

1. Establish an international agreement by the G-7 nations declaring the Present Islamic Religion as a common threat to Humanity and kick Russia off the G-8.

2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.

3. Force China and Russia to back off from supporting rogue nations through the use of incrementally staged and serious economic sanctions.

4. Keep fighting the ground and air war as we have been.

5. Full G-7 boycott of Iran, Syria. Set a blockade on both; shoot anything that goes in or out.

6. After Iran and Syria are internationally declared Regimes of Islamic Threats to Humanity, invoke the draft and go to full time state of war. Go for the throat.

7. Watch Saudi Arabia team up with Iran. I suspect Saudi Arabia is playing both sides of the street while it is in its interests to do so.

8. Threaten to wipe out all Islamic Religous sites if the old Islam ever shows it face again. Hollow threats are useless.

If we were not so gluttonous about the easy money of oil, these people would not have a dime to their names to do much of anything. But they now have money and lots of it and presently can screw our economy with their oil.

Like I said… the real solution, if it’s anything like the above, will be a bitter pill at best.

TIGERESS

I agree with a-lot of that, except I don't see the Arab / Sunni loyal Saudis ever siding with the Persian / Shia loyal Iranians. Never say never, but its unlikely IMO. These folks are super loyal to their brethren for the duration, one reason many regular folks over there don't trust the US is because our loyalties change depending on which party is in power... this isn't a concept they accept, to them, in the overall sense, we believe in nothing and are loyal to nobody except the one country they hate: Israel.  

I also don't think the current situation is anywhere dire enough for all out war on all fronts... I would suggest the govts of the worlds powers allow everyday middle class people to negotiate and talk out our differences.

Imagine 10 everyday people like AH bbs'ers, and 10 average Iranians in the same room, I'd bet that within 2 hours all would come to realize we have more things in common than not, and most of the fiery rhetoric of our leaders is a steaming pile of fecal matter.

Of course this will never happen, the repubs, Dems.. just like their Mullah counter parts, have their own agendas that have nothing to do with eeking out a peaceful happy existence.

[john9001]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
Imagine 10 everyday people like AH bbs'ers, and 10 average Iranians in the same room,  

can i bring my guns?