BOB pilots dint do much!!!!

[68Wooley]

Originally posted by Thruster


It could be said that Hitler had the war soundly lost the moment he decided to engage Britain, probably even earlier.

Possibly, but I think his real mistake was to take on the Soviets before he had finished off Britain. Japan certainly didn't help either by bringing the US into the war.

[Angus]

Well, Hitler could have chosen NOT to stand by the tripact deal and left USA out of his equation. That would have been a twist!
Let's see, - then he would not have had to prepare for a western invasion, and the shop would have been open with the USA. Britain could never conquer Germany and Hitler could have directed almost his full force (except the airforce and elements in the desert war) on to the USSR.
Attacking the USSR while at war with the UK was perhaps dicey, but when he declared war on the USA it was really over IMHO.

[storch]

germany lost the war because hitler was a moron and not with any fault in the german forces.

[Excel1]

nah, germany lost the war and got its arse kicked because the germans were servile enough to follow a jumped-up little mad headed freak in a quest for world domination.

[storch]

british military intelligence concluded that it was better if hitler were not whacked but allowed to live because his idiocy would cause the collapse of the german military far quicker than any external effort ever could were there to be competent leadership in his stead.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Dowding
A purely political decision based on keeping Moscow sweet.  

Which negates all.

[Angus]

If my memory serves me, Churchill was all for Poland being a Sovereign State after WW2. Stalin wanted to have the grip there, and Roosevelt was the third man who could have made the difference, but didn't.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Angus
If my memory serves me, Churchill was all for Poland being a Sovereign State after WW2. Stalin wanted to have the grip there, and Roosevelt was the third man who could have made the difference, but didn't.

Monte Cassino proved the Poles fate.   They were sold out on Sept. 1st, 1939.

[Angus]

Read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Yalta_Conference

"Premier Stalin refused to travel farther West than the Black Sea resort of Yalta, in the Crimea. Each leader had an agenda for the Yalta Conference: Roosevelt asked for Soviet support in the U.S. Pacific War against Japan, specifically invading Japan proper; Churchill pressed for free elections and democratic governments in Eastern Europe (specifically Poland); and Stalin established a Russian sphere of political influence in Eastern Europe, as essential to the USSR's national security."

Churchill pressed for free elections and democratic governments in Eastern Europe (specifically Poland);

[Obie303]

Stalin played Churchill and Roosevelt for his own political gains.  He never trusted the allies.  Patton was right in the end.  As far as the Soviet Union assisting the U.S.  with the Japanese, Stalin never attacked the Japanese until August 8th, 1945.  After the atomic bomb was dropped.  Yet, Roosevelt asked for assistance in in February 1945.  You have to ask yourself, why would the Soviets have waited.

Monte Cassino proved the Poles fate. They were sold out on Sept. 1st, 1939.

This was another sad truth for the Poles.  Not to mention all the supplies that were dropped to the Polish Home Army only to be taken from them by the Soviets.  The Home Army used whatever they could get their hands on.

Obie

[MiloMorai]

The Poles were not used in the battles for Monte Cassino until the 4th battle beginning on May 11 1944.

Britons, Americans, New Zealanders, South Africans, French, Canadians and Indians also took part in the battles.

[Angus]

"Monte Cassino proved the Poles fate. They were sold out on Sept. 1st, 1939."

Call me slow, but I don't get this statement.

And BTW, the Baltic states as well as Poland were "sold out", - which was a Nazi-USSR deal. The first maneuvers actually were in the Baltic, before Germany invaded Poland, and that was USSR on the move.

Anyway, the "sell-out" is well described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Stalin_pact

One input against Poland:
"The Soviet Union marshalled 466,516 soldiers, 3739 tanks, 380 armored cars, and approximately 1,200 fighters, 600 bombers, and 200 other aircraft against Poland.["

Not sure if the image works:

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Angus
Call me slow, but I don't get this statement.

The Poles were massacred needlessly at Monte Cassino.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The Poles were not used in the battles for Monte Cassino until the 4th battle beginning on May 11 1944.

Britons, Americans, New Zealanders, South Africans, French, Canadians and Indians also took part in the battles.

...and?   I realize and know that the 8th Army was also used.   The Poles were sent to slaughter.

[Angus]

And at Arnhem? And why do you bind Monte Cassino and 1/9 1939 into the same sentence?

As a sidenote, the Polish were often frustrated about NOT being in the heat of these and those battles. That was also the case in the BoB, and the reason was communication and probably spiced with some British conservatism...