Author Topic: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)  (Read 8692 times)

Offline Murdr

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2008, 04:38:20 PM »
<sigh>
All I asked for is....
Ok, what's your take on the other side of that.  For every 1 player who now breaks cap, how many more will be willing to join in the attempt if they are given the edge of no concequences if they fail in the first 30 seconds?
Let's just say for every one current cap breaker, three more will be willing to attempt it with a 30 second rule.  So then a lightly contested field instead of having 3 uppers, now has 12.  On a more hotly contested field, 40 instead of 10.  Here is my question.  How will the real estate players adjust their tactics in response to that?  And after those adjustments are made, what will the effect be on overall gameplay?

Offline Murdr

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2008, 04:40:32 PM »
BiP, you cant make me.

Could use a smiley flipping the bird

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2008, 04:41:06 PM »
Ok, what's your take on the other side of that.  For every 1 player who now breaks cap, how many more will be willing to join in the attempt if they are given the edge of no concequences if they fail in the first 30 seconds?

I'm glad you flip-sided this. I spend a lot of time watching base captures, defenders and vulchers. I'll often spend entire afternoons going from one milk-horded base to another popping vulchers as fast as I can with 37mm to aid my brave defenders. So, I have a pretty solidly objective idea of how this plays out now and we can extrapolate from there...

1-The bar shows up in a vacant base's sector.
2-Depending on the size of the attacking force,  the current state of the map and the time of day a few defenders come to the field.
3-There's usually 2-3 people who happened to be in the tower looking at the map when this happens, they get up to defend.
4-Once they get some visual or dot dar intel, they ask for help.
5-Depending on how thinly spread the war effort is, another 3-5 show up along with a couple of AA gv's and field gunners.
6-The attackers arrive, most ordnance goes to ack, VH, AA GV's and radar in that order, followed closely by FH's and town.
7-Those not heavy engage the 2-3 defenders that got up first.
8-Those that just dropped engage the 3-5 that just got up so are E poor.
9-Depending on how many attackers there are the initial 5-8 defenders either kill the attackers who evaporate to appear 15 sectors away after finding another vacant field to victimize; or the defenders now without benefit of field ack, AA or AA GV or radar support attempt to re-up.
10-The attackers don't establish air tight CAP immediately, as some are helping strafe town buildings or GV's heading toward town.
11-The 5-8 recently towered defenders come up piecemeal after they got killed the first time, but now they are energy bankrupt and don't last as long and draw the attackers close to the field.
12-Now the attackers develop suffocating air tight cap, the 5-8 defenders are now reduced to 3-5, they try to up a few more times only to get popped right on the takeoff spot by pendulum pass vulchers.
13-The defenders stop upping, the attackers take the field, land their vulches, get their arses kissed for their text buffer puff piece before deciding the next vacant base to victimize..

This is a very accurate "typical" scenario repeated 100 times a day in the MA, especially on the HUGE maps. Strafings system will have some pre-effects on how things will setup before engagement, then directly effect stages 9-13 of the engagement. The pre-effects take numerical form. It won't likely change the 2-3 initial uppers that happened to be sitting in the tower when the attack was identified, but it will affect the number that come to help once the initial defenders issue a call to arms. Instead of the 3-5 that may come for what they realise is an almost certainly futile effort, you may get twice to three times that number depending on the arena population at the time and the size of the attack.

So, now instead of having only 5-8 airborne defenders prior to engagement we will now have more like 11-18 defenders due to the reduced overall futility factor of defending against milk-hordes. Only the initial 2-3 will likely be in a good E/Alt position once the attack arrives the rest will still be alting. But, a lot of our better sticks love the idea of base defense as a challenge, so we'll have a high percentage of skilled players helping who have no problems fighting at a disadvantage if necessary.

Now the attack arrives, we are at stage 9. This is where everything changes. Now there is a much greater chance there will be a pitched battle once the jabo's dive and drop. The attack will have a good chance to fail depending on the success of the now light jabo's relative to the 11-18 established defenders. If the attack is not repelled initially it will take longer, in proportion to the numerical odds, for the attackers to tower the defenders. But, the defenders will be re-upping as they die. So, this is where it gets great. In order for the attackers to completely suppress the field like they used to do at stage 11, they must use their E advantage and skills to push back the persistent defenders to the point of the 30 second grace period. The defenders will likely be able to maintain a few with some E capable of possibly intercepting low buffs near the field. The option to intercept low heavies was never really an option after stage 9 before.

As you can see, assuming my prognostications are reasonably accurate, this will return us to how it used to be. It will mean successfully taking a base will much more often result from winning an exciting fight, not just being a sneaky and/or an overwhelming force. Progressing through stages 9-13 of a capture based attack will rely a lot more heavily on fighting than vulching, raising the skill level over time of your average milk-hording mission guys. Conversely, defending bases from these attacks will result in a lot more fights and a lot less getting insta-vulched, making close base defense gain popularity. The defenders will always be at an E and initiative disadvantage, but they will have to be beaten in the air decisively for a capture attempt to be likely to succeed. Even if the attackers choose to drop FH's from alt there will be a fair number of airborne defenders more able to forestall the attackers long enough for  support to arrive from a proximate field. As it is today, there is rarely ever time to get air support from a proximate field before the base is completely suppressed and capture is completed...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:37:52 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline BiPoLaR

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2008, 04:47:45 PM »
<sigh>
All I asked for is....Let's just say for every one current cap breaker, three more will be willing to attempt it with a 30 second rule.  So then a lightly contested field instead of having 3 uppers, now has 12.  On a more hotly contested field, 40 instead of 10.  Here is my question.  How will the real estate players adjust their tactics in response to that?  And after those adjustments are made, what will the effect be on overall gameplay?

I think it will bring Gvers back into the game. More GV raids. Im for that.
Vulching for score or just Vulching period im no fan of. I personally want to see 10 guys up off a field 40 if they want. I love to earn my kills.

Example:
Myself and furball were flying together the other morning. We could've vulched this field all day long but no. We were telling the other few guys there "let them up". once these guys got up we had some great fights.

Murdr have you ever noticed its the same twits at every vulched base?


Again, i see nothing wrong with planes upping in mass off a field. Thats kinda like pr0n to me. I love it.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 04:51:45 PM by BiPoLaR »
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Offline Murdr

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #124 on: July 27, 2008, 04:50:25 PM »
Zazen.  Thank you for your evaluation.  

My concern is that the natural way to adapt to an increased level of field defense is to make a priority of completely removing the ability to spawn anything at all.  Hence, no fight :(  

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #125 on: July 27, 2008, 04:52:35 PM »
<sigh>
All I asked for is....Let's just say for every one current cap breaker, three more will be willing to attempt it with a 30 second rule.  So then a lightly contested field instead of having 3 uppers, now has 12.  On a more hotly contested field, 40 instead of 10.  Here is my question.  How will the real estate players adjust their tactics in response to that?  And after those adjustments are made, what will the effect be on overall gameplay?

They will have to fight for fields, rather than simply relying on the application of clandestine and/or numerically overhwleming attacks. This is how it used to be and how it still tends to be on small maps. Perish the thought base attackers have to actually learn how to fight for fields.."The Hororrrrr....!" :O
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline Murdr

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #126 on: July 27, 2008, 04:53:03 PM »
Donkey I have been vulching when the opportunity presents itself since 1996 back into Air Warrior.  Sometimes, like during off-peak it's a good idea not to take that opportunity because you will end up with nothing to shoot at.  I have been on range channel it cases like that urging others to let the poor guy up and take turns with them before we end up with no enemies.

I don't see any requirement to be a purist or an extremist for only one cause.  I can have fun with furballing, a good fight, a GV ambush, vulching, attack run, porking, ect.  None of those are mutually exclusive from the others.  I have raced a vast majority of what are considered the best sticks at one time or another to the next vulch over the years.  The general attitude of "wahh, change it because it's not fair...it's not honorable" smacks of a PC type argument as does the idea of "so-n-so is doing it for motivations I disapprove of, therefore we need a rule that affects everyone else.

Opps, mutiple windows, this reply was sitting idle and unposted for a long time *(19 replies, lol).

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 04:55:33 PM by Murdr »

Offline BiPoLaR

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #127 on: July 27, 2008, 04:53:27 PM »
Zazen.  Thank you for your evaluation. 

My concern is that the natural way to adapt to an increased level of field defense is to make a priority of completely removing the ability to spawn anything at all.  Hence, no fight :( 

I think it would create some wicked furballs.
IMO i dont think it would kill fights just help kill toolshedding
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #128 on: July 27, 2008, 05:04:27 PM »
I think it would create some wicked furballs.
IMO i dont think it would kill fights just help kill toolshedding

Based on my, "Before and After" breakdown, it may be the only thing that could possibly make HUGE maps really fun to fight on. On small maps there's almost always persistent, established defense at fields to counter attacks, no one ever complained about the fun fights that creates. This change would make the reactionary defense I described on HUGE maps a reasonable facsimile of the persistent, established defense on the small maps. It won't be quite as strong because reactionary defense will always have an E and initiative disadvantage relative to their persistent/established defender counterparts, but it'll be a vast improvement over what we have now on HUGE maps.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:06:25 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #129 on: July 27, 2008, 05:11:15 PM »
Zazen.  Thank you for your evaluation.  

My concern is that the natural way to adapt to an increased level of field defense is to make a priority of completely removing the ability to spawn anything at all.  Hence, no fight :(  

That's conceivable, but there will be more reactionary defenders initially to help prevent that. Even if they fail to prevent it outright, they've bought enough time for defenders to arrive from a proximate field to assist. So, if you are correct, you will end up with a lot more, "Fight over the base in the middle", sort of scenarios. That would be a great improvement to gameplay in my opinion...As it is now, there is almost never time for defenders to assist from a proximate field before capture is complete even if the hangers are left up. The attackers with overwhelming force pork, cap and vulch the field too quickly.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:43:26 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline crockett

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #130 on: July 27, 2008, 05:12:08 PM »
<sigh>
All I asked for is....Let's just say for every one current cap breaker, three more will be willing to attempt it with a 30 second rule.  So then a lightly contested field instead of having 3 uppers, now has 12.  On a more hotly contested field, 40 instead of 10.  Here is my question.  How will the real estate players adjust their tactics in response to that?  And after those adjustments are made, what will the effect be on overall gameplay?


Look we can argue what ifs till we are blue in the face.. Just take for granted that the real estate players who don't want to fight for a base, will continue to figure out a way to take a base with as little fight as possible. If they start killing FH's more often then it will just make porking ords all the more imporant.

On the other hand I can tell you exactly what will happen when more people decide to up. A good and fun fight will happen in most cases. Hell I'll go as far as to show you what can happen. The other night I was on Rooks and we had a fight going on at a Bish base. However the Rooks started de-acking the base and setting up shop to start vulching. Seeing there was less and less uppers my self and two squaddies decided to up on the Bish side at that base to fight off the vulch.

We managed to break the vulch and keep the fight going, granted we were at a severe alt dis-advantage but it was agrevating and fun at the same time. I can almost 100% assure you the guys trying to vulch likely had more fun fighting us vs shooting planes rolling on the ground. If they didn't well they are tards.

Also note, field had been deacked and was getting vulched before we upped, yet the town hadn't even been touched.. Proving once again the vulching was going on just for easy kills vs capturing a base.

Here is the film... (yes I actually posted a film I die twice in)
http://www.wargamerx.com/films/k4-on-deck.ahf

I don't think there is anyone who can give a legit argument that vulching is more fun that actually fighting.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:37:33 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline saantana

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #131 on: July 27, 2008, 05:14:36 PM »
I do not think this idea will be implemented simply because

A) - It won't increase the fun in gameplay, only increase the learning curve.
B) - Will piss some people off, including people like myself. I like vulching!  :furious
C) - Will have little affect on hording.

Do you really think the bishops will stop hording over this? I don't think so  :D
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #132 on: July 27, 2008, 05:16:59 PM »
I do not think this idea will be implemented simply because

A) - It won't increase the fun in gameplay, only increase the learning curve.
B) - Will piss some people off, including people like myself. I like vulching!  :furious
C) - Will have little affect on hording.

Do you really think the bishops will stop hording over this? I don't think so  :D


Ehmm.. I'm not a fan of this new proposal.. but how would it's implementation "increase the learning curve" ??  :huh
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #133 on: July 27, 2008, 05:18:49 PM »


Do you really think the bishops will stop hording over this? I don't think so  :D


Read my big post above. The success of this isn't dependant upon stopping anyone from milk-hording or vulching, that would be an incredibly naive undertaking. It's to make milk-hording success depend upon at least some actual fighting by making reactively defending against them somewhat feasible.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:44:23 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline BiPoLaR

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Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #134 on: July 27, 2008, 05:23:20 PM »
I do not think this idea will be implemented simply because

A) - It won't increase the fun in gameplay, only increase the learning curve.
B) - Will piss some people off, including people like myself. I like vulching!  :furious
C) - Will have little affect on hording.

Do you really think the bishops will stop hording over this? I don't think so  :D



A) - It won't increase the fun in gameplay, only increase the learning curve
He means : I cant vulch anymore. i have to learn AMCs  :cry

EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:49:17 PM by BiPoLaR »
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