South Osetia under attack

[Elfie]

How can you imagine a country 10 times smaller attack a bigger neighbor equipped with relatively modern airforce, hundreds of tanks, heavy and rocket artillery? Ask Finns about Mainila. That's pure idiocy.

I actually missed this earlier.....

I never said the smaller country attacked the larger one. I did however show two completely different reports on who started what. I can certainly imagine South Ossetia starting a fight knowing the Russians would come to their aid. I can also imagine Georgia starting the fight hoping that if the Russians jumped in, that NATO would come to their aid.

South Ossetia is Georgian territory, as is the other rebel province. Any disputes need to be resolved between the Georgian government and the separtatist provinces.

The only numbers I can find online for equipment used by the Georgian armed forces is from Wikipedia and that particular article is not documented very well so I would take what it has to say with a grain of salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Georgia

A grand total of 245 Main Battle Tanks, 40 of which are the older T-55's. Their best fighter aircraft is the MiG-21 and they only have 18 of those. They do apparently have 12 of the high speed MiG 25 interceptors as well, along with 39 attack aircraft. The airforce is pretty well out dated.

Equipment

Main battle tanks

    * T-72B1 - 59 units
    * T-72M - 75 units
    * T-72AB - 71 units
    * T-55AM - 40 units

AIFVs/APCs

    * BMP-1 - 80 units
    * BMP-2 - 120 units
    * BTR-80 - 75 units
    * MT-LB - 64 units
    * BRDM-2 - 17 units
    * Otokar Cobra - 100 units

Towed artillery

    * 2A36 Giatsint-B - 12 units
    * 2A65 Msta-B - 18 units
    * 2A18 (D-30) - 120 units

Self-propelled artillery

    * 2S7 Pion - 12 units
    * 2S19 Msta-S - 3 units
    * 2S3 Akatsiya - 26 units
    * VZ 77 Dana - 47 units

Multiple Launch Rocket Systems

    * M-87 Orkan - 4 units
    * RM-70 - 48 units
    * BM-21 Grad - 120 units
    * LAR-160- 15 units
    * M-63 Plamen – 12 units

Mortars

    * 2B11 120 mm - 240 units
    * M-38/43 120 mm - 365 units
    * M75 120 mm – 250 units

[edit] Georgian Air Force

The Georgian Air Force consists of the air force and the air defense.

The main missions of the air forces are: to control and defend air space of Georgia; conduct air intelligence and surveillance; provide support to the Armed Forces other Services; conduct air evacuation and search and rescue operations; air movement of personnel and military cargo transportation. The strength of Air Forces is 1 813 military and civilian personnel.

[edit] Equipment

Aircraft

    * 22 Su-25KM
    * 13 Su-25UB
    * 12 MiG-25
    * 4 Su-24
    * 18 MiG-21
    * 11 L-39
    * 2 L-29

Helicopters

    * 1 Mi-35
    * 19 Mi-24P
    * 21 Mi-24V
    * 18 Mi-14
    * 16 Mi-8
    * 6 Bell 212
    * 40 UH-1H
    * 2 Mi-2

[edit] Air Defence

    * 15 SA-11
    * 38 SA-3
    * 18 SA-8
    * 35 ZSU-23-4
    * 15 S-60
    * 40 MT-LB with towed ZU-23-2

[Elfie]

hmmm here's the timeline in that region so far...

1991-92
- S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce

2004
- Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories

2006
- S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum

April 2008
- Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia

July 2008
- Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up

7 August 2008
- After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire

8 August 2008
- Heavy fighting erupts overnight, Georgian forces close in on Tskhinvali

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are still Georgian territory. Until some sort of agreement can be reached between the two sides that is.

[Elfie]

Bulgaria and other former Warsaw Treaty countries are NATO members now. They "kindly donated" their weapons to "freedom loving" Georgia, old Soviet/Polish/whatever hardware. US sold them some UH-1 choppers that remain the only things able to fly there.

Links.....or you're full of pewps again.

[MORAY37]

The military will never admit that they have plenty of resources. Soon as they do they start losing what they have. To say we couldn't very easily engage in a much larger war than what we face in Afghanistan and Iraq pretty quickly is only said by the military looking for more funds or someone looking to criticize the commander in chief.

After 6 years of 2 ongoing wars, costing at least 1 trillion of our dollars (and that is being conservative)... sometimes the truth is the truth.  With upwards of a third to 45% of the Army's combat ready regular active brigades already committed elsewhere (not just Iraq) I respectfully disagree with you. Now, unless you somehow think that throwing national guard troops mixed with army ACB's (Active Combat Brigades) at Regular Russian Actives on their soil is a good idea.......(I'm probably talking to a wall here, you probably live in a world where you think US NG troops actually had a chance versus regulars) we just don't have the strength to do it.  If the fight was in Alberta..... yeah, we could do it, with our backs ups against the wall.  12K miles away, with transport and logistical hurdles that are near impossible to surmount, and without prepositioned heavy equipment.... FORGET it.

 I also note that your military background notwithstanding, you rush quickly to judge a man who is Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  How many commands have you had, again?
 Considering you're out.... I'd say you haven't had one...certainly not a list like this.  I'll take this man's word over your BBS rationale....he's the one responsible.

Michael G. Mullen, Commands held
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Naval Forces Europe
Allied Joint Force Command Naples
Vice Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Second Fleet
NATO Striking Fleet Atlantic
Cruiser-Destroyer Group Two
George Washington Battle Group
USS Yorktown (CG-48)
USS Goldsborough (DDG-20)
USS Noxubee (AOG-56)

[MrRiplEy[H]]

So you admit that Mainila was a true casus belli and a Finnish fault?!

Admitting that would be weird since soviet leadership publicly admitted staging the Mainila shots as an excuse for the attack. Go figure..

You live in some weird parallel reality Boroda I never could believe someone still believes in soviet time propaganda, even in Russia.

[Boroda]

So the USA can give, if the Americans wanted to,  American citizenship to Georgians then?

It's up to you guys. No one can stop you.

[MiloMorai]

It's up to you guys. No one can stop you.

So you think it would be OK for the Americans to hand out passports to Georgians when Georgia was part of the former USSR.

[-tronski-]

The Georgians are attempting to retake soverign territory from a Russian backed breakaway, and at least they have the balls to take on the task from the "Russian peackeepers" (Ha, they're not fooling anyone with that title).
A pro western ex soviet state, with American military advisors wanting to join Nato is being pushed to the brink by its bully of a neighbour, the question should be what will or should Nato, and the west do about it?
The fact they're sitting on large deposits of resources, and a pipeline which bypasses Russia and Iran makes it a problem they can't afford to ignore.
Either Georgia is playing for time, and the hope of Nato intervention or a Russian backdown - or maybe they believe they could take on the Russian military, which lets face it the bulk of which isn't worth $2 dollars in an actual fight - apart from its reliance on the Airforce and its artillery

 Tronsky

[Hap]

Right now Georgian forces are bombing Tshinvali using BM-21 Grad. They officially announced hostilities against South Osetia. Russian peacekeeping forces are still not involved, but we'll see.

This is insane. I see a full-scale world crisis beginning.

Boroda, I'm so sorry this is happening.


It is insane.

[Suave]

If you check some of the past independant journalist reporting that has come out of S. Ossetia  you'll notice that Ossetians really don't like Georgians, there's a lot of bad blood. They've never considered themselves georgian, see my previous post about east euro nationalism/stupidity. The fact that 90% of them have chosen to take russian passports and be identified as russians rather than georgians should give you an indication just how much they don't like Georgia. The only way that Georgia can reclaim S. Ossetia is by displacing most of the ossetians, aka. ethnic cleansing. Ossetians deserve the right to self determination as much as anybody else.

Now, has russia been antagonizing, manipulating and taking advantage of the situation? Absolutely. The gangsters that control russia would love to get their hands on the door to the caspian. But that's not going to happen either.

If georgia and russia commit to war against eachother it is going to be very damaging to russia. A ground war will be very difficult for russia. Pound for pound, the georgian ground forces are much better. But russia has air superiority. So tragically, what I speculate is that russia will fall back on artillery and aerial bombardment to compensate for the incomptence of the russian ground forces just as they did in Chechnya. Which of course is going to cause a disgusting amount of civilian death and misery. And I think the georgians will fight unyeildingly. The war would be very damaging for russia should they take the fight beyond S. Ossetia into georgia. And in the end they won't be able to annex Georgia anyway without returning to being regarded as a pariah state again. And the russian people won't tolerate that. A lot of muscovites still remember having to wipe their bellybutton with leaves 20 odd years ago. 

[Boroda]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are still Georgian territory. Until some sort of agreement can be reached between the two sides that is.

Kosovo

[AKIron]

After 6 years of 2 ongoing wars, costing at least 1 trillion of our dollars (and that is being conservative)... sometimes the truth is the truth.  With upwards of a third to 45% of the Army's combat ready regular active brigades already committed elsewhere (not just Iraq) I respectfully disagree with you. Now, unless you somehow think that throwing national guard troops mixed with army ACB's (Active Combat Brigades) at Regular Russian Actives on their soil is a good idea.......(I'm probably talking to a wall here, you probably live in a world where you think US NG troops actually had a chance versus regulars) we just don't have the strength to do it.  If the fight was in Alberta..... yeah, we could do it, with our backs ups against the wall.  12K miles away, with transport and logistical hurdles that are near impossible to surmount, and without prepositioned heavy equipment.... FORGET it.

 I also note that your military background notwithstanding, you rush quickly to judge a man who is Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  How many commands have you had, again?
 Considering you're out.... I'd say you haven't had one...certainly not a list like this.  I'll take this man's word over your BBS rationale....he's the one responsible.

Michael G. Mullen, Commands held
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Naval Forces Europe
Allied Joint Force Command Naples
Vice Chief of Naval Operations
U.S. Second Fleet
NATO Striking Fleet Atlantic
Cruiser-Destroyer Group Two
George Washington Battle Group
USS Yorktown (CG-48)
USS Goldsborough (DDG-20)
USS Noxubee (AOG-56)

Only 45% of our Army committed and much less than that of our other services and you think we couldn't mount a campaing somewhere else? Do you realize that our Air Force almost alone decimated the world's 4th largest Army in '91. Of course there was a build up of forces and support forces over several months but that would have to be replicated just about anywhere we aren't already forward based. I think your hate for Bush blinds you.

Military commanders wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't jealously protect their resources and ability to wage war. I don't fault them for this.

(added)

and Naval air forces

[Boroda]

So you think it would be OK for the Americans to hand out passports to Georgians when Georgia was part of the former USSR.

Sure.

Did you?

Cowards who can only mass-kill unarmed civilians.

[evenhaim]

This is all ive gotton around to reading lately

By MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writer
50 minutes ago
 


GORI, Georgia - Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded

[Boroda]

Only 45% of our Army committed and much less than that of our other services and you think we couldn't mount a campaing somewhere else? Do you realize that our Air Force almost alone decimated the world's 4th largest Army in '91. Of course there was a build up of forces and support forces over several months but that would have to be replicated just about anywhere we aren't already forward based. I think your hate for Bush blinds you.

Military commanders wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't jealously protect their resources and ability to wage war. I don't fault them for this.

You use 45% of your armed forces to pretend you control a country of 11 million. So far you are somehow successful only raping third world countries strangled by international sanctions like Yugoslavia and Iraq.

You are absolutely insane if you seriously think your regime can afford a full-scale conventional conflict with Russia.