Dueling: What shots do you take and what shots do you hold off on?

[grizz441]

Come on ... Shane in an La-7 vs you in a P-38 ... there is no real expectation of you winning that setup, with any regularity, unless Shane is in "teach" mode.

Yeah that's true, I'm a huge noob.

[Ack-Ack]

You know me...i just hose anything and everything then let god sort out it I "won" and rant and rave over 200 if I didnt....this while #@#$ over <S>'s

1st and foremost its a matter of intent and interpretation. The better the sticks involved the greater the potential for an issue IMO. In a friendly duel (Bat and I for example) anything beyond the 3/9 line is pretty much verbotten with the occasional exception of really sweet canopy shots acquired by super sweet ACM...what I mean is that the typical "I'm around 1st" FQ canopy job is a mutual pass. Now if I'm in a true duel and I'm forcing a 2 circle fight thats a very valid shot...especially in the MA.

I think this is a true gray area, its a pilots responsibility to manage the fight. A FQ shot is perfectly "legal" and often the advantage is passed when the shot is passed. That being said at its truest form a 3/9 line presents the greatest challenge....

In our fights the other day, even in the furball setting it was in, I recall us keeping it pretty 'clean'.  I know I didn't take some of the shots I could have, not out of any sense of 'honor' but rather from not wanting to spoil a good fight with a questionable shot, even at the expense of being picked. 


ack-ack

[humble]

In our fights the other day, even in the furball setting it was in, I recall us keeping it pretty 'clean'.  I know I didn't take some of the shots I could have, not out of any sense of 'honor' but rather from not wanting to spoil a good fight with a questionable shot, even at the expense of being picked. 


ack-ack

I think thats the hardest part for some folks to grasp, neither one of us wanted to spoil the integrity of the fight itself or "win" in anything less then a stand up way. I'd rather lose 10 good fights (and it felt that way the other night for sure:)) then "steal" a bad one. I think its the fights like the ones we had that leads to my frustration (from the other post) when a good stick for whatever reason doesn't seem to get the same satisfaction out of the actual fight itself. {now that might be unfair in that specific case since I do not know if mm even was tuned to 200 or knew the yak was there. I hosed Del in the AVA last week not knowing there was a 2nd con over and slightly ahead of me. From my view he just pulled up early, when in reality he was getting sandwiched...so when he got hosed by me he was surprised since he knows i'm not normally going to engage as the 3rd guy in...I just had no clue I was}. Fun fun fights BTW

[moot]

not to mention nooblike....not to mention twitlike, oh wait you already used that one. Actually honestly I got in a habit of using that since they let you use it.  I dueled one of my friends entirely in F3 mode before, it was quite fun and difficult to aim.  Then somehow I got in the habit of flickering to it in actual fights.  I should stop though, it is a bad habit.  I'm also pretty sure Shane used/uses it in that film also at least once.

Evidence? 

It's just really easy to hit f3 when you lose someone, premerge i typically just like to look at my plane from external.  But in the fight it's pretty lame.  Why do they even have that option available in the DA?  Should only be in TA.

...

And fellas, this whole teacher/student thing is nonsense. [Your opinion. An uninformed one.] Next time we'll take up planes with no ammo and just duel until we run out of fuel going through the maneuvers. [Do you mean to prove something with this, e.g. that you did win these fights, that this is all about who's the better stick after all?] It wasn't even close to a HO and he didn't even get close to finishing his turn, case closed.  I have pretty conservative HO rules meaning anything close to a HO I won't take.  If my opponent can get his nose half way in his front screen next to mine I wont take it.  But an entire screen away from my nose?  That's called a front half shot, not a front quarter shot.  I also don't have time to analyze what Shane is doing in the middle of a fight.  Why is he giving me this shot? As far as I'm concerned he had his brakes chopped and was going to pull up and reverse me there.  It's called instincts, I don't have time to analyze how uber Shane is in the middle of a fight and that that shot is so easy it's probably a gimme and I should only take snap shots where I'm going 60 mph because that's the only skilled shot that could kill such an uber pilot in honorable fashion, right?

You don't know what you're talking about. You must have missed a crapload of DA time with everyone from Leviathn to Urchin to Wildthng, etc, to think that there's no such thing as ignoring end-game shots to keep the fight going. And you might be unaware that there's a sort of unspoken consensus that getting the killshot is only half of the success, the other being winning the fight preceding it.
I bolded the key words in your post. You're just denying that there could be something here beyond your horizons. That's your problem, not Shane's, nor is it his fault.
In blue is a straw man + appeal to ridicule. That's not what dueling in AH is about. It's getting hard not to think that you just can't be arsed to learn the rules of the game, and then act like it's everyone else than should adapt to your small pond point of view.

And the point about not having time to analyze what the other guy is doing.. That's like one of the basics of dogfighting, especialy 1:1. It's no excuse whatsoever, here.

[grizz441]

quack quack quack

I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap.  I've never flown against you.  You don't know anything about me "m00t". You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can and standing up for the vets even if they are wrong.  You know what's the funniest part about it?  You can't even fly!  You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job.  How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes?  Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell.  You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about.  Until then keep your duck bill shut. 

[sunfan1121]

I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap.  I've never flown against you.  You don't know anything about me "m00t". You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can sticking up for the vets even if they are wrong.  You know what's the funniest part about it?  You can't even fly!  You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job.  How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes?  Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell.  You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about.  Until then keep your duck bill shut. 

LOL about dam time.

[Shane]

Meh.. F3.. if I ever use it, it's on takeoff (or dead time) to admire the planes.. la7 is cool looking with the 3d cockpit.  I never get to really admire the plane I'm hoping to kill.  

During a fight? Not something I do.  Who knows, tho? Wouldn't film show? Never bothered to think about it.

Haven't read the rest of the thread. Far as I'm concerned, it's.. meh... no big in the larger scheme.

Grizz can fly well... give him time to learn to fight.  

<edit:heh> Oh, and I did offer some advice... to mix it up with his merge. He was being fairly predictable, so I played his game. Won some lost some.  We never really had the opporunity to go into a rolling scissors slow on the deck, or into a more e-fighting.  It was mostly rope style (with some rolling scissors)... which a 38 can do very well, But also something I very rarely fall into... the pure rope stallout.  He did earn at least one honest rope, for which he got a "GK" from me.

Hence my not continuing to nose into his rope. I know if I did he'd not shoot (many do shoot and miss in the arenas, sometimes I shoot back, too, but not in a friendly duel - that's one of the things I do well, weasel out of guns solutions) and I'd be right on his tail with more of an advantage than he thought I was gaining by turning so early. 

I wasn't rolling downwards "out of his way into an early turn." I was rolling upwards and turning (still had nice speed) - when we passed I'd be slower and out of plane. He'd have been much faster than when he took those shots.  I was wanting to see what he'd do.  Never got the chance. 

[ink]

Shane, we have never had the opperatunity to fight, one of these days I would like to duel ya, to test myself,

my issue with the DA (besides the f3 view)though is I think the merge pass is lame, its all about who can pull tighter,( for the most part)  I never understood the concept of flying very close past each other then manuvering around to get the shot,  I feel the merge is the most important aspect of a fight, and where you should set up for the kill shot, WITHOUT takeing a HO shot(yes even in the MA), now when you have two "sticks" who know how to merge and  refuse to take the HOshot, this is where the epic battles will take place, to me its like a dance or a great fight between Martial Artists,

anyways I would like to duel ya, but

Guns would be hot on merge with no HOs.

Each person takes there favorite plane,no alt cap after enitial merge.

and the whole idea is to KILL the other guy without a HO shot.

[mechanic]

I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap.  I've never flown against you.  You don't know anything about me "m00t". You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can and standing up for the vets even if they are wrong.  You know what's the funniest part about it?  You can't even fly!  You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job.  How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes?  Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell.  You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about.  Until then keep your duck bill shut. 

unless you secretly know moot and this is a troll........WTF are you talking about? Moot is class, one of the top sticks, widely respected for his flying and his character, generaly polite on the forums and speaks his honest opinion. This must be a troll! 

We had fun the other day dueling Grizz, though now i suspect it was more about you seeing if you could win and me just flying around trying to have a good fight. I thought you got it and were there for the fun of it, not the kudos. If you want to test me to see how you handle my A game...well...just ask, and i will go searching for it, not sure i even know what my A game is myself, so long since i've needed to proove it in a duel.

[moot]

I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap.

You mean crap like the string of whiney PMs I got from you? Like the absolutely retarded crap in the other thread, that I'm a lefty, defended glock, or other assorted nonsense?

  I've never flown against you.

nope.

  You don't know anything about me "m00t".

I know what I see in your posts.

You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can

Not nearly as long as you seem to think. This post is going to take 30sec tops.

and standing up for the vets even if they are wrong. 

Show me where.

You know what's the funniest part about it?  You can't even fly!

Is this some kind of boobytrapped troll? 

  You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job.

I'm done with exams.. I've earned the right to slouch around all day long before leaving for xmas vacation, sucking on the university library's endless magazine subscriptions and stopping every 30-45min to read random stuff (a couple of forums and motorcycle stuff (tho racing season's done now) and astronomy, mostly), which helps the serious reading sink in. That's just the way I work.

  How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes?

a couple at most.

Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell.   You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about.  Until then keep your duck bill shut. 

cf batfink's post. Not only are you really not so good in the game to earn the right to smack pretty much everyone you meet like you've been doing, but you're likely to get everyone against you. I dont recommend it, but like I said in the PMs, it's up to you. Not my fault you're a putz.

And you're right this time, took me almost 3min to write this. More than it's worth.. Im done. good luck on the rest of your friendship tour.

[dedalos]

A word of advice to all 

When you are dueling some one, friendly fight or not friendly fight, please take your shots.  Friendly or  not, I want to know when I made a mistake.  Getting as fight into a stalemate after forgiving several mistakes is really not as a great fight as you guys think.  Yeah, it lasts longer, it is not a fight anymore and if there was something to be learned, I missed it since I did not die.  You telling me you had shots you did not take after the fight is over is just BS.  Keep it it to yourself because on my end it looks just like excuses.  In addition, maybe you think you had it but I think you didn't. Take your shots for crying out loud lol  I had Shane riding in Bats plane the other day telling me how bat had the shot but did not take it.  Why?  Why tell me after I won?  Why not take it?  To me that fight was a waste of time since I don;t know what mistake I made if I made one.

A lot of this not taking the 4,5,7,8 o'clock shots comes from no one, even the so called aces, knowing how to merge without ending up head on with the other guy.  Instead of trying to figure out how not to be in that situation, a typical duel has two outcomes.  Every one will push hard to always end up in the HO position and hope for the no HO rule, or they will try to break early in an attempt to cheat the turn (meaning they begin their turn earlyer).  That is fine  but in the process of that, they give you a shot.  If you don;t take it, you are at a disadvantage and you will die.  If you do take it, you have to deal with them calling it questionable shot etc.  So really, all you are left with is a merge after merge with guys ending up kind of HO or guys breaking early.  Not really a fight.  Just a dance with no meaning at that point.

In my opinion, take the shot when you have it and expect the other guys to do so.  The only way for me to learn is to get shot.  You telling me you had it but did not take it is not only meaning less, it pisses me off because you wasted my time.   What ever you do though, don;t tell me after the fight you had it but did not take it.  What you are really saying is that you won, which means that this was not a friendly fight or for fun or learning to begin with.

I am still trying to find out how to not end up in those situations.  That is what I love about fighting Bighorn.  If he gets guns on you, you die.  That forces me to do everything i can to avoid the above situations and not get lazy and rely on the "honor" rules.  And remember, just because a fight lasted long, it does not make it a good fight.  It was a stalemate.  A good fight to me is the I killed you in a few seconds or you blew me out of the sky in a few seconds.  If it goes on longer, we both have failed

[Shane]

That's true ded, when you're dueling for the kill as opposed to having the chance to see what the planes could do... just because a guns solutions was passed up (could've missed) doesn't mean the fight is any less worthy.  

All depends on what you're looking for out of the duels.  That's where communication is important.
 

[moot]

Ded - You don't get it, but since you're on good terms with the dinosaur, you can ask him about it. He gets it.

if there was something to be learned, I missed it since I did not die.

Except you say that just for the argument, not because it's true... See:

And remember, just because a fight lasted long, it does not make it a good fight.  It was a stalemate.  A good fight to me is the I killed you in a few seconds or you blew me out of the sky in a few seconds.

Key words in bold.. Good is subjective and 'to me' excludes the definition from applying to anyone but you.

If it goes on longer, we both have failed

Well.. failed to end the fight asap, not necessarily failed to have fun.

Strictly flying for the kill makes duels end by HO 1/2 the time and the other half it's more like a quick game of tic-tac-toe. Repetitive and not much fun.

[FLOTSOM]

A word of advice to all 
 Take your shots for crying out loud lol

well ded i promise that at every opportunity that should appear before me i will happily shoot you!

course i believe i already try to live up to this........i just dont get very many chances

FLOTSOM

[ink]

A word of advice to all 

When you are dueling some one, friendly fight or not friendly fight, please take your shots.  Friendly or  not, I want to know when I made a mistake.  Getting as fight into a stalemate after forgiving several mistakes is really not as a great fight as you guys think.  Yeah, it lasts longer, it is not a fight anymore and if there was something to be learned, I missed it since I did not die.  You telling me you had shots you did not take after the fight is over is just BS.  Keep it it to yourself because on my end it looks just like excuses.  In addition, maybe you think you had it but I think you didn't. Take your shots for crying out loud lol  I had Shane riding in Bats plane the other day telling me how bat had the shot but did not take it.  Why?  Why tell me after I won?  Why not take it?  To me that fight was a waste of time since I don;t know what mistake I made if I made one.

A lot of this not taking the 4,5,7,8 o'clock shots comes from no one, even the so called aces, knowing how to merge without ending up head on with the other guy.  Instead of trying to figure out how not to be in that situation, a typical duel has two outcomes.  Every one will push hard to always end up in the HO position and hope for the no HO rule, or they will try to break early in an attempt to cheat the turn (meaning they begin their turn earlyer).  That is fine  but in the process of that, they give you a shot.  If you don;t take it, you are at a disadvantage and you will die.  If you do take it, you have to deal with them calling it questionable shot etc.  So really, all you are left with is a merge after merge with guys ending up kind of HO or guys breaking early.  Not really a fight.  Just a dance with no meaning at that point.

In my opinion, take the shot when you have it and expect the other guys to do so.  The only way for me to learn is to get shot.  You telling me you had it but did not take it is not only meaning less, it pisses me off because you wasted my time.   What ever you do though, don;t tell me after the fight you had it but did not take it.  What you are really saying is that you won, which means that this was not a friendly fight or for fun or learning to begin with.

I am still trying to find out how to not end up in those situations.  That is what I love about fighting Bighorn.  If he gets guns on you, you die.  That forces me to do everything i can to avoid the above situations and not get lazy and rely on the "honor" rules.  And remember, just because a fight lasted long, it does not make it a good fight.  It was a stalemate.  A good fight to me is the I killed you in a few seconds or you blew me out of the sky in a few seconds.  If it goes on longer, we both have failed

this is a very good write-up, I try to kill my NME as fast as possible, and if they survive and we have a great twisting turning fight, then he is the worthy advasary, if its a "friendly" duel then it should be done in the TA, so you can merge and re merge till your hearts content.