Author Topic: The jugfire  (Read 10016 times)

Offline AKSWulfe

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The jugfire
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
Urchin, see it all becomes a matter of pilot skill (not really sure skill.. maybe more knowing what he's going to do before he does it), plane type and fuel load in those engagements.

A P47D-25 with only 50% in his main tank while 0% gas in his aft tank will without a doubt be able to get onto a 109G2's tail and stay there if the 109G2 has 75% in his main tank. Those are about equal fuel load weights between the two, what it comes down to is wing area at low speeds. Something the D-25 has more of than the G2. The 109F4 though is no contest it will undoubtedly turn inside any American plane currently modelled regardless of fuel loads.

I believe that the 190D9 and 190A8 also turn about the same, maybe the D9 is a little heavier on the controls.. BUT the 190D9 has the engine power and ability to regain energy quicker than the 190A8 which in turn means more chances to make mistakes and still regain his energy to continue the fight. The 190D9 will lose a turning fight against any currently modelled American plane though, but it has the speed to escape.

For the 109G6 it's really a sluggish turner at low speeds. It's also a toss up on fuel load and pilot ability. In a pure sustained turn, a Jug or P51 with light fuel and a notch or two of flaps can get inside the G6, especially at low speeds. But the higher the speed, the better the chance the G6 has of getting inside. Here's the kicker though, you CAN use a spiral climb sustained turn in the 109G6 and the P51/P47/P38 will not be able to get inside because the G6 will simply climb away while those planes are sitting back there struggling to get enough air over their elevators to maintain their turn.

One thing I am certain of though, is that the 190A5 vs D-25/F4U-1D(or C)/P51D(orB)/P38L it all comes down to pilot ability and fuel loads. Typically if you are up against an average pilot in one of those american planes, sustained turn the 190A5 will easily win out. For example, several tours back, I was dogfighting a P51D and F4U-1C. I managed to keep inside of the F4U-1C and still be able to turn away from the P51D(he kept making long drawn out passes). I managed to hang on the F4U-1C's tail long enough to shoot off his entire tail section using just the 7.92mm nose MGs. (400 odd rounds) The P51D I managed to get to commit to the fight (by now I had about 60% in my main tank, 0% in my aft) and when the P51D got slow I simply stayed on his tail no trouble and emptied about 20 cannon rounds into his wing and he crashed. The P51D pilot failed to drop one or two notches of flaps though, so this could of easily been the reason for me to stay on his tail so easily.

Here's what I suggest you do, if you want better research than simply going to the DA.. I find this method helps to understand all aircraft better: Go offline (yes I know it's boring ;-) and test the various aircraft you think might be a close turner with your plane.

Get a stop watch and a pad of paper and pen. Take off and allow your plane to get to a set speed (250MPH to start with) and have your compass stay with the heading "North", bank left or right (try both ways, depending on engine torque you might be able to get a faster turn in one direction) and begin turning as hard as you can without stalling (be sure to start the stopwatch right when you begin turning), when you are facing north again, stop the stopwatch and record the time, speed, fuel and flap settings.

Repeat for each plane trying different combinations. I was amazed at what the American planes can do with a notch of flaps (something the 190 can't do because they don't deply until around 160MPH).
-SW

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2001, 10:38:00 AM »
Eddiek, I to get all confused when they talk about the different varients.  I pretty much make a face like this  :confused:   :eek: .  

Nashwan- you know waaaaay to much about spitfires  ;)  I do think you may have a point though, and if the Spitfire IX you guys get is a 1942 one, you should at least get a 1943 one.

And lastly, SW, thanks for all the information  :D.  I HATE going to the offline mode, and I don't even have a stopwatch.  But what you said is a big help anyways.  Thanks again.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2001, 10:46:00 AM »
No problem, I like to discuss the pros and cons of various aircraft per the in game modelling. It's interesting what things you can do in the 190A5 versus the Spitfire or some other "more popular" plane.

I would take you up on the DA offer, but unfortunately my flight time is very very limited.. and what time I do have for flying I like to spend learning a new plane in the MA or going to the SEA (when I have have time) and enjoying some historical recreated battles.
S! Urchin.
-SW

Offline minus

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« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2001, 10:59:00 AM »
damn strange !!!!

 USAAF test prove  all the time the superiority of usaaf planes vs LW

  RAF test prove  all the time superiority of RAF planes vs LW

  LW  test are proved some superiority vs  ALIED planes ?  

 vho is objective and who  was propaganda potato ?

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2001, 11:16:00 AM »
It's all about fuel loads, E states, and pilot ability.

I've been asked how I "out turned" a Spit IX quite a few times while flying the D-25 Jug.  Not the D11... the D-25.  The reason every time was that I had less than 50% main tank fuel and more E to start.  I can use vertical moves and sound E fighting tactics to get quite a few shots at a Spit IX before I have to give up and extend.  Versus a pilot who has a bunch of fuel on board or who doesn't quite know how to fight against my Jug, I'll often win.  If I misjudge the other guy or he is light fuel, I often have to turn tail and bug out after only a couple of passes.  This doesn't change whether I'm flying the D11 or the D25 to be honest.

If you think there really is something not right, take the suggestion above and do some simple tests.  A complaint with no data to base it on is the definition of a "whine" in my book.

Lephturn

Offline DmdStuB

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« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
I was able to easily stay with and out turn a spit in a d-30 at about 1000 ft. the other day.  Why?  I was down to 1/4 fuel, half my ammo load and used some flap here and there and kept the WEP on.  I have to say that I was a bit suprised during all of this.  Every time I committed to a new turn I said to myself "one more time and that's it - I'm buggin out" but the Jug was keeping up.  I couldn't believe it.  The Spit would try a few turns and then try to extend, which I wouldn't let him do, and then he would try some more turns.  He finally ended up stalling and spinning in at about 500 ft.  Of course I forgot to film it, as usual.
I think the fact that he never made more than 3 circles before trying to extend helped me alot.

StuB

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2001, 01:19:00 PM »
Hey Urchin.. I just had a memory spazm...

Wasn't it you who I was dogfighting P47D-25 vs La5FN?

I think it was you, I could be mistaken though.
-SW

Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2001, 01:52:00 PM »
If pyro is going to add 300lbs on to the plane to "make it right" then I would like to see the paddle prop, P47 Advocates

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DmdStuB:
I was able to easily stay with and out turn a spit in a d-30 at about 1000 ft. the other day.  Why?  I was down to 1/4 fuel, half my ammo load and used some flap here and there and kept the WEP on.  I have to say that I was a bit suprised during all of this.  Every time I committed to a new turn I said to myself "one more time and that's it - I'm buggin out" but the Jug was keeping up.  I couldn't believe it.  The Spit would try a few turns and then try to extend, which I wouldn't let him do, and then he would try some more turns.  He finally ended up stalling and spinning in at about 500 ft.  Of course I forgot to film it, as usual.
I think the fact that he never made more than 3 circles before trying to extend helped me alot.

StuB

Stub, i am  JUG fanatic, but I have yet to outurn a well flown spitfire..ever. I welcome you to show me. I'll be the spit, you take the D25, or whichever. And we can switch up. Let me know if you would like to do this.

ammo
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Online eddiek

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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Personally, I have never been able to outturn a Spit in any of the Jug models...admittedly, I am not the hottest Jug pilot around, but I have been flying it from it's inclusion into the AH planeset.  
AirScrew, give it up, my friend.  Pyro already stated he did not want to model 8 Jugs, and I guess that is what he sees himself having to do to make paddle-props available.  This is his and HT's game, they write the code, and what they say goes.  
The original point of this thread was to point out that the Jug D-11 does turn better than most expect..........is it a Jugfire?  That all depends on the perspective of the individual.  
As to what the added weight will do to the overall performance of the D-11, I don't know.  I rarely fly it anyway, as I feel more comfortable in the D-30 and D-25(D-27, really?     ;) ).
I think minus tried to make a point.....what I got out of it was not what I think he intended, but it is this:  Both sides, Allies and Axis, tested captured aircraft against their own.  Both came up with favorable results, both said their planes could beat the other.  I see no propaganda involved, other than making their pilots feel comfortable about engaging the enemy in battle.

Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2001, 04:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek:
German plane, performing 26 mph faster than ANYTHING I have been able to find for it's model is "okay"?  Give me a break!  The weight will be added, no doubt;  will the G10 be slowed down to the 426 mph top speed (only speed I have EVER seen for the G10, BTW)?  Oh?  What's that?  "Certain" models of the G10 had the K model's engine installed?   Hhmm.......what is wrong with this picture?  German planes modeled to whatever gives them the highest #'s performance-wise, but the Jug has to be stock, right down to the "published" numbers.  Seems someone on the inside has a hidden love for LW iron, and wants them to have all the edges.........     :(

There wasn't a G-10 or K-4 with one engine and one engine only. So it's funny when you are talking about "G-10" being too fast. With this you mean what G-10? One with DB605D engine or DB605ASCM or DB605DCM? All totally different engines or tuned differently for use of different grades of fuel. All these engines have different performance figures like the planes equipped with them. If you are interested in the performance figures of the G-10 we have in AH I suggest you do a little research...

Just a few pointers to get you started...

-Our G-10 doesn't have "K-4s engine". DB605D-series of engines were installed in both variants (K-4 and G-10) of the Bf-109.

-German wartime performance sheet lists highest power output for the DB605D as 2200hp with MW-50. AH G-10 has DB605DCM engine which used MW-50 and higher octane (96/100 "C3 fuel") fuel than normal DB605D
which uses 87 octane (B4) fuel...

-Highest top speed for the K-4 with DB605DCM engine is around 450 mph (452 mph in many sources). Considering that K-4 has recractable tail wheel our G-10s speed (around 440mph) is very close to the truth. G-10 being a tad lighter doesn't affect the top speed much.

EDIT[Source for the wartime performance sheet: Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseon julkaisuja 8 MESSERSCMITT BF 109 JA SAKSAN SOTATALOUS, ISBN 951-95688-7-5, author Hannu Valtonen]EDIT

   
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek:
As far as the G10 being relabeled a K4, if it has K4 performance, it ought to be called the K4 and not a G10.  The increased armament doen't bother me in the least....just makes it more of a challenge, plus the added weight of the cannon should make her handling suffer some, giving me a better chance of getting a kill.

What I stated above about AH's G-10. And BTW LOL...hehe...what's that added armament in K-4 compared to G-10?    :p

Eddiek, if variants confuse you don't start ranting without knowing better that they should fix something which ain't broke ...

---------------

1Wmaker1
 

P.S From where did you guys get this figure of 300 lbs associated with D-11's lightness? I haven't seen Pyro or anyone at HTC stating the exact weight.  :confused:

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Wmaker ]
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »
Pyro said it was some 390 lbs too lighht. IIRC it was in a thread pyro started called "Flight Model Stuff".

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2001, 05:28:00 PM »
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002216

THat's the thread, but I can not find any reference to the actual weight that is missing from the 47D-11.
-SW

Offline batdog

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The jugfire
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2001, 06:01:00 PM »
Hehehe... OMG StSanta lookie what ya did!!!!
I agree w/what Leph said...fuel/E/Pilot decide many things. A jug turning at 300 is a nasty beast... a jug turning a 150 can could be a nasty beast but most likely its just gonna be a pig. The D11 doesnt have the fuel load of the 25 or 30 P-47 varients. THAT alone makes a diff. The 47 has an excellant wing which is why such a beast can move at all. HT and Co will add the wieght..but when that d11 is down to 25 percent fuel and burned some ammo and you come in w/a fat spit at 300+...beware cause some hotshot jug pilot might ruin your day, as is the case for all planes in this game.

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2001, 06:10:00 PM »
Yes SW, I do believe that was you in the P47.. I think hehe.  I believe I was flying bish that day, and i had upped the La5 for base defense.  You split-S'd towards the water, I made a flat turn and we ended up going HO.  Can't remember if you shot me down or just damaged me though, I do remember you brought that sucker around faster than I expected though ;p  You jugfire pilot you  ;)