Oh how I hate the 190's

[Anaxogoras]

As far as E-Fighting w/ BnZing vs. TnB'ing is concerned. I can say as someone who learned to play TnB'ing first, then evolved to be an E fighting specialist a few years later, it's really not more difficult to get kills per se one way or the other, but it is harder to be as efficient a killer BnZ'ing. The way you have to get kills is quite different from the perspective of pace and initiative fighting vs. reactionary fighting. It's much harder to kill quickly E fighting, because you are generally in a plane that has the only real defense, if in a bad situation, to disengage completely. A TnBer can stay defensive with a chance of turning the tables to regain the offensive much more readily just by sheer maneuverability without having to disengage at all, especially if his opponent(s) are less maneuverable.

Without the E advantage an E fighter really cannot shake an equally skilled pilot in a more maneuverable plane on his six. The reverse is not true however, a more maneuverable plane can shake or avoid a less maneuverable E fighter indefinitely, fairly easily, even if less skilled. So, there's really a lot less margin for error E fighting, there's no failsafe if you have your E advantage negated, you're pretty much toast.

What makes a good BnZ'er is timing. Timing and aim  is everything. Everything is much faster paced at or near the point of engagement BnZng as opposed to TnB'ing. It's quite difficult in a lot of situations to be at the exact right 3 dimensional space at the exact right time with closure rates potentially as high as 1,000 mph on a maneuvering opponent, especially if he's aware of you. Then to get the timing right, get the shot off, make it count and do all that without negating your E advantage on that adversary, if not destroyed, or others nearby is often quite tricky. While not to belittle TnB'ing, I wouldn't necessarily call flinging a Spit16 around, latching onto someone's six and hammering away quite the same degree of difficulty, especially if the adversary is of inferior skill or not in one of the 3 or 4 more maneuverable planes in the game.

As someone alluded to, may have been AKAK. BnZing is pure aggression, if you have the advantage you should be attacking or at least poised in a coiled position to pounce at the first attractive opportunity and press the advantage until you no longer have one or he is destroyed. What people see is a lot of people BnZing who really don't understand how to exploit the initiative of a fast plane in an advantageous energy state. What they don't consider is those folks, while they may be a pest, are almost invariably sporting a paltry 1 or 2 kills an hour. It is nearly impossible to BnZ or just E fight in general without an aggressive spirit and maintain anything that could be considered reasonable killing efficiency.

[Cthulhu]

You guys crack me up. All planes have their strength and weaknesses. Some are fast, some are agile. Some (F4U's and 190's come to mind) manage to do a pretty good job at both. I hear the same groaning about Spit dweebs, Lala dweebs, "RunStangs", and on and on ad naseum. Same old tired nonsense.

When you up your ride of choice, do you fly to utilize it's strengths, or do you play the other guy's game for fear of looking "unmanly"? Unless you're like m00t or Grizz, and can somehow make the 190 turn on a dime (I think they cheat  ), that's not manliness, it's boneheaded stupidity. The 190's have just a couple of strengths, at the expense of being hamstrung in just about every other category. Sure 190 pilots pick (News Flash: We all do), because the 190's (especially the Dora) are good at it. I don't begrudge them for it. If I get picked it's my fault for poor SA.

Here's an idea. Instead of grumbling about how the other guy flies, how about you take up "his ride" (190 in this case) and fly it the way you're used to flying your usual steed. Go ahead and Yank n' Bank with Spits and Niki's for a day or two. Drop flaps at treetop level and show that 38 driver how a "real" pilot flies. After a day or two of eating the pavement maybe you'll have an epiphany and realize the "other" guy may just know what his plane can (or can't) do, and is flying it accordingly.

[A8TOOL]

So far, I've only flown in the DA (not good enough for the MA yet!).  I fly the 190 a lot and find it funny because what you are describing is what I see the Mustang and Typhoon pilots doing.  Yes, I'll take a HO shot now and again because, at least in the DA, if you don't most of the others will and your done.  I usually dive in BnZ style once or twice and then try to mix it up with all you "turners" out there and I have the scars to prove it!  I would like to eventually get enough skills to be competitive low and slow as well.  You all do need to understand that just as you use your aircrafts strong points (ie: sharp turns, good E recovery, etc.) we need to play to the strength of our bird as well.  So yeah, if I have good speed or the fastest roll rate in the game I'd be an idiot not to use them.  Don't all cry for more aircraft in the game and then want people to not fly them because they handle different from your bird and therefor do not play to your desires.  I don't complain when you Spit and F4u pilots sit behind me 5 deep trailing me all over the sky while I try rolling out from a hailstorm of .50 and 20mm shells.  I could complain too but hey, all's fare in love and war and...I just don't know you well enough yet.

Very good post by the new guy ...somebody should pick him up.



I fly 8's, 9's F6, F4's, Fm2, both Ki's, and a few others from time to time. If it carries ord I'm in it and have had some fun with the 12 rocket 190-f8 . The A5 has got to be my favorite 190 because it fits my style of fighting more closely. I also enjoy the 152 when I take it up, thats a fun plane but I don't take any of them up on a regular basis.

The problem with the majority of 190 simmers is they all fly it the same way and the main reason for my complaint. I know exactly what to expect out of them. They are a a nuisance most of the time and annoy me. The few that fly them differently always shock the heck out of me and I'm usually quick to commend them on 200... whether they got me or I got them. There are a few good ones and don't expect any of them to turn with me.

[Stampf]

Here's an idea. Instead of grumbling about how the other guy flies, how about you take up "his ride" (190 in this case) and fly it the way you're used to flying your usual steed.

  And then please post film, because...well...laughter is good. 

[Chalenge]

A8Tool it wasnt so long ago I saw you doing the same thing you are complaining about but I also think its a natural pathway of progression as you learn a new ride. Climb up where its safe and then dive down with enough E to allow for an escape if you need it while slowly learning how the plane handles by engaging busy cons with enough friendlies around to help out if you need it.

Unfortunately this is also where a lot of team work complaints come out. The more eyes there are in one area and the newer pilots that there are the less people there are that are actually looking around. It was the same way in WWII.

[Motherland]

I fly 8's, 9's F6, F4's, Fm2, both Ki's,

So you fly some of the best turning aircraft in game, and then you wonder why people won't turn with you? Particularly 190's, which are perhaps the worst turning aircraft in the game?
Really, I don't understand the whole aversion to BnZ. Not just from the person who's flying BnZ's perspective, but from the person who's fighting against him. I really enjoy trying to equalize E-States with that high Dora or Pony or whatever. It really is pretty fun. Helps you're gunnery as well, I think, looking for those weird fleeting shots.

Flying the 190 in BnZ in a ... 'target rich environment' is really more challenging than turnfighting on the deck I think. Staying aggressive enough to get some kills before you run out of gas while at the same time staying conservative enough to get out, balancing on that line is really fun and challenging.

[Cthulhu]

And then please post film, because...well...laughter is good. 

Where are my manners? Add Stampf to the Pantheon of Uber 190 pilots who simply must be cheating.   

[Stampf]

Flying the 190 in BnZ in a ... 'target rich environment' is really more challenging than turnfighting on the deck I think. Staying aggressive enough to get some kills before you run out of gas while at the same time staying conservative enough to get out, balancing on that line is really fun and challenging.

Indeed, and with friends it becomes very fun, working tactics and teamwork, which is afterall what the 190 series excels at.  For the 190 pilot, the fight is about the game, the manuevering, retension of A/C strength and the setting up of the advantage.  When the enemy is in the sights, the fight is over.

Where are my manners? Add Stampf to the Pantheon of Uber 190 pilots who simply must be cheating.   

Heck no, but at least you are keeping this thread funny.  Plenty of guys in my own unit can whoop me like a two week-er.  Experienced in it? yeah, getting there I suppose.  Uber?  no, not yet, sadly.  Do well because we stick to what works. Certainly love the plane though and enjoy utilizing it strength's, and dealing with it's weaknesses.  Paired up with 109's in a mixed wing, and it really shines.

[CDR1]

When I first started fighter flight Sims, (Pacific Strike) it was me verses the AI. As with most games I began seeing the pattern in the AI's tactics. I took complete advantage of that knowledge and saw myself become a "Great stick". Of course I was not a great stick, in fact using the pattern in the AI to my advantage stalled my learning with regard to becoming an all round good Sim pilot in combat games. Some years ago I discovered AHII and have been devoted to the "Game" ever since. I take no offense to any tactic used by any other player in this game. If I get picked, hoed, camped, ganged, rammed, whatever that is on me not the other player. I fly yak T's and U,s, Ki84's and 190f,s. I do lots of gving. I always engage an enemy because that is the object of the game. I have no idea what my score is and don't care. The engagement that comes to mind when I think of "enjoying the game" was a 10 min. 1v1 with a p40E. I was in a 9t. That p40 pilot was a super pilot and was using the few good points a p40 has to perfection. We fought in a deep valley so extend and climb was not a really option. In the end I ran out of gas and only had 6 taters left. I dropped my flaps and landing gear and landed on the valley floor, waiting for the coup de boom. All I got was a "GF Yak" on 200 and the p40 flew off. More Fights like that would be wonderful cause they teach you to be a better game player. My point is a great pilot can have a great game in any plane cause it really is all about the pilot. For me there are still enough great players in this game to make it a fun evening.

[diaster]

I take offense. I am not good, but I'll fight anyone in my 190.

Actually I have gravitated to the a8, it is great for porking radars when they are up and I am bored. If i die in it the spitty dude doesn't get that many points
and when i manage to get three before landing, I feel like I have actually accomplished something. I do fly it high and fast, that is the way to use it. Most kills in
acm where high to low, within 200 feet and a total surprise.

For you 190 haters... If one gets bounced in a 190 and gets killed, their SA was a bit sloppy. If one is paying attention, they are simple to avoid and take down unless they run, then just let em go and find another. IMHO

[Slate]

  It started with the LA-7 being the ultimate Dweeb ride. Then I see the Spitfire was declared as a Dweeb fighter. Now we're picking on the FW-190? Where will it end? Is the Hurricane next? It's very Dweeby to complain about Dweebs.

  Victims of FW-190 attack Group Meetings every third Wed in the DA.   

[B4Buster]

For the average 190 pilot I completely agree with what you posted A8TOOL. I laughed a little bit thinking about my own experiences.

As others have said however, it really does come down to the pilot. "Good" 190 pilots are just few and far between.

[bobtom]

I regularly take out a 190a8, not an a5, low and slow against the horde of spits, f4us and the like from cvs.

[MjTalon]

Indeed, and with friends it becomes very fun, working tactics and teamwork, which is afterall what the 190 series excels at.  For the 190 pilot, the fight is about the game, the manuevering, retension of A/C strength and the setting up of the advantage.  When the enemy is in the sights, the fight is over.

Heck no, but at least you are keeping this thread funny.  Plenty of guys in my own unit can whoop me like a two week-er.  Experienced in it? yeah, getting there I suppose.  Uber?  no, not yet, sadly.  Do well because we stick to what works. Certainly love the plane though and enjoy utilizing it strength's, and dealing with it's weaknesses.  Paired up with 109's in a mixed wing, and it really shines.

We learn from you kommandant. 

[Hazzer]

 Chennault and the AVG would have understood the 190 driver,the Japanese called his P40 drivers cherry pickers because they did not engage their Oscars and Zekes in Dog fights.WTG Claire.

 The only people whining about 190's are it's victims,the target fixated and the stupid.