Pyro, No C-hog perk!!

[F4UDOA]

Yeager,

Really it is the popularity. It has roughly 15,000kills and 10,000 deaths. The death total alone tells you how many people are flying them. The Typhoon has the same exact armament and the NIK2 has 4 cannon as well as the A8. Is the F4U-1C FM any better than those planes? Better than the Tiffy FM? It is the most popular by far. But certainly not the best FM. Most of the people that fly it don't fly it because they are dedicated F4U jocks like myself. They fly it because of a perceived advantage, real or not. Remove it from gameplay and the extra 5,000kills won't spread evenly across the plane set. They will go to the next great predator with a perceived advantage ie. the NIK2 or Tiffy.

The MA is like a food chain. Remove the Tiger and everybody will want to be wolf not a deer.

Whels1,

Your the only one who got my point. An F4U-1C is a waste as perk plane. Make it a F4U-4B/C or add an F2G. In the mean while give us an F4U-1 or 1A to fill the whole and break up the boredom of NIK2's and Hellcats flying in circles.

[Torgo]

F4UDOA,

I VERY strongly believe AC that never fired a shot in anger in WWII shouldn't be in AH, even as perk AC.

No cannon-armed F4U-4s, period. Perk a .50 F4U-4, that's great.

For the same reason I think P-51Hs are a horrible idea, too :-)

[Apache]

Gentlemen, I was basing my argument on karnaks' post. I would assume his position on the reason this ac is to be perked is inaccurate.  

[Ripsnort]

"Rip, if you find Chogs easy to kill is just because most of them are flown by newbies not due the drawbacks of the plane."

True, true.  So I admit it, you're taking away my bread and butter!  I rely on C-Hogs in arena, because they are my supper!  

[LJK Raubvogel]

We really don't need another variant of another US plane. Let's get some planes from other countries first.

[Jimdandy]

I say again. The only reason to perk a plane in my opinion is it's relative rarity in WWII. The fact that 20% of the kills come in a chog should have nothing to do with it. If it was represented in numbers that better reflected it's actual production that wouldn't happen. I know that they are basing the perk points on different criteria than that. But I see it coming down to one thing, which plane is next on the list. I see nothing in my opinion that makes the chog so popular other than the fact people can watch reruns of Black Sheep Squadron and day dream. It's a fine plane but I think there are better planes to fly in AH. The next plane on the list will be the Spit or the N1K I bet. I don't think there is any way to force people to fly a plane they don't like. Thus I say perks should be made on the bases of something more substantial like the actual availability of the plane in WWII. There were very few chogs. There were lots of 109g6's. There were lots of Zeros, dhogs, f6f's, Spits, Hurricanes (and there not on here) and others. I don't really have a problem of the perk point system being a reward for good pilots. In most cases the top pilots were the ones to get the best equipment. I feel a graduated system of perk planes needs to exist. Look at the planes that actually had the potential of seeing combat in WWII wether they actually saw combat or not. Also add in the special planes like the 262. Then make a best to worst list based on availability and flight performance. Planes like the P-47M and the P-51H and the F4U1-C could be the first planes people could have available to them. Next might be something like the 262. And at the top maybe an Me 163. Now lets not go into the fact that the 163 would be a terrible plane to dog fight in. It would be on top do to a combination of rarity and flight performance. Wouldn't it be kind of cool to be able to hop in a 163 when the HQ was threatened and rocket up to the bombers and take some pot shots.   Planes like the 262 would be seen in ones and two's now and then. The 163 would be see only when someone got the wild hair to fly it. The P-51H's and P-47M's, and F4U1-C's would be seen in 2's and 3's maybe a few more. All of these planes would have to be hard to get. These planes are only used to make an example. There a more of them that could be used.

[Karnak]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Karnak, I consider the source so I shall ignore you.

Ripsnort,
What do you mean by this?

If you mean me, then, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

I have never had a problem with the Hispano cannons.  I have always maintained that the anti-Hispano guys need to show that there is a problem with the Hispano.  They have not.
The ONLY problem I have with the F4U-1C is how common they are.  I do not get killed by them very often and I find them generally easy to shoot down.  I just wish that I didn't have to shoot them down as often as I do.  On my last sortie, for example, I shot down a F6F-5 Hellcat, F4u-1C, P-51D and an F4u-1C.  That is all too typical.

If you mean the source of the graph, well, I'm sure that Pyro is incredibly biased against the F4U-1C.  That is why he has implemented the wishes of each C-Hog whiner as fast as he could.  NOT!

All I that I pointed out is that, contrary to you and the other anti-perk the F4U-1C whiners, this is a decision based on the unbalancing effect the F4U-1C is having on the Perk Point system.  That is what Pyro said.

So, you are saying that Pyro is a liar when you make claims that the F4U-1C is being considered as the first perk because either it is too good or because HTC is caving into the F4U-1C whiners.


The ultimate source that you are considering and then ignoring is HiTech Creations, not me.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[Apache]

Jimdandy, I agree with some of your post. In all honesty, my position against perking the f4u1c is not because I am going to lose my ride, (that being the typhoon for jabo & P51 and f4u1d for ata) but that it is being perked due to the numbers, however one calculates it.

We will have another popular ride. Ever since I have been in these sims, there has been one. The WB spit, that famous P38   and right before I left in 2.76, the f6f, come to mind. Talk about whines, sheesh! In AH tho, if it gets too many kills or is too popular for the arena, guess what?

[Hooligan]

I am not sure I am correct but I THINK that Pyro's position is that they don't want a few aircraft dominating the arena.

It seems that part of the intent of the perk system is to create more diverse aircraft usage in the arena.  Since the carrot element of the equation (more perk points for flying a 202) is not effective enough, they are activating the stick element (i.e. limiting aircraft usage for certain models).  

Right now about 30% of the sorties flown are flown in F4Us (most of these are -Cs).  Part of the cause is that CV combat is so fun that CV capable aircraft are getting disproportionate usage.  In another map configuration, which devalues CVs, I would not be surprised to see the N1K quickly reach the top of the popularity chart and get the same treatment.

I think all of this stuff about how good or not-good 1Cs are, how loved or hated they are, or how many were produced is all beside the point.  I think the bottom line is that HTC doesn’t want to see any aircraft flying 30% of the sorties in the arena and they are going to limit aircraft availability to prevent this.  The perk system isn’t even really operational yet so nobody knows what it is going to be like in 3 months.  Pyro says they are not going to do anything that “hurts game play”.  It might turn out that perking the –1C “hurts game play” more than a high ratio of 1C sorties “hurts game play”.  What I suspect is that the “low level” perk the 1C is getting will probably not affect the guys who really care about the 1C a great deal (i.e. Torque is still going to fly 90+% of his sorties in one), and that the habitual 1C whiners are going to whine just as much as before because they will still run into them frequently.

Besides we don’t really know how this will work (except that HTC is intent on minimizing pissed off customers).  After we have perked Spit XIVs and Doras, 1Cs might be removed from the perk list.

Jay

[Apache]

Hiya hooly! I see your point and your explanation is the best and most understandable that I have seen. But what about the trickle down? These guys who are currently flying that bird in numbers have to fly something. What is going to happen if the same numbers go to the Spit? In this case, because of the CV fun, the Seafire?

[Karnak]

Hooligan kinda has it.

Because perk value is set based on how popular a ride is, any ride that garners 20% of the kills is going to be worth too many points when killed by something that is unpopular, say a Bf109F-4, C.202 or P-38L.  This meeans that the person who kills a few of this staggeringly popular ride will then be able to go out and grab his perk Me262 at a much higher rate than HTC intends, thus leading to a glut of Me262s, P-51Hs and Spitfire F.MkXIVs.

All because one, easy to kill, aircraft is so popular.

They are thinking of perking the F4U-1C because its extreme popularity is threatening to break the perk system.  There is no other reason.

It does not mean that the F6F-5 will be perked if it gets 10% of the kills after the F4U-1C is perked.

It has nothing to do with the actual power or vulnerablity of the aircraft.

It has nothing to do with whatever anybody has said about the aircraft.

It does have to do with the percieved power of an aircraft.

I think it is unlikely that all the Quake High people will migrate to the same aircraft, but if they do it would definately be a problem for HTC.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 01-09-2001).]

[Tac]

"The C-hog is no better or worse than any other plane in AH. It has cannons and a good, not great FM"

Thats true. However, the problem as I see it is that the CHOG has snapshot kill ability. You have no idea just how many, if not almost all the CHOGS I meet start spewing hispano at d1.1 when they are in my 6. They know all they need is one lucky ping and im a goner.

I gave the controls of a 12k alt CHOG I had flown on top of a low alt furball to my 12 year old cousin who barely flies MS Flight Sim. Guess what. He dove in, sprayed like hell, shot 3 guys down and then the killshooter got him (he pinged a friendly plane that flew past his nose).

CHOGS do not promote ACM. they promote spray and pray.

I applaud and I am VERY glad to see a hog behind me that fires .50's. I know that guy will have to outfly me to get me, not outluck me in a spray and pray gallore.

The N1K is next on the perk menu. It has the same snapshot kill power AND it has an amazingly good flying ability. Looping 11 times after takeoff is serious indeed.

To perk the P-51D may only come if earlier models of the pony are avaliable. It takes skill to fly the pony into a good firing position, albeit we all hate how it can run away if it screws up.

Perking is great for playbalance. If the P-40 and P-39 and planes from other nations of their time are introduced... would YOU fly them constantly knowing you will be facing planes that not only manouver better and are faster than yours (aka, F4U), but that will need not to ACM you because they snapshot kill you (aka, F4U-C, N1K). Its my opinion that HTC would then waste their time in making those early/mid-war AC's because so little people fly them.

Just see how many fly the 202 more than twice a week. Nice little plane, but quite hopeless against a CHOG.

I like the big blue bastard... on my gunsights. When I fly the F4U now, i take the D version, I find it very challenging to fly and very, very fun. I fly a CHOG, I know I dont need to manouver into a good firing position, just spray around the con at d700 and he's toast. Ammo wasted per kill: around 60-80 shells. Ammo on CHOG: Enuf for 5 or 6 kills.

Now gimme a PERK P-38K and ill be a happy perk point spender    

[Baddawg]

Arggggg!!! :0
Why does "perked" carry such a negative connotation?
Perhaps its a misnomer for what is really happening.
And as soon as one says perked ,the alarmists run out screaming the end is near the end is near!
Am I the only one here who sees perked in degrees or levels of perk?.

Ok imagine this HTC makes a tempest a dora  a p47N a me262 ect the amount of  planes in this aspect is more limiting than going in the reverse in plane set .
 So what we are seeing is that there might be 8-10 High perk planes, the ones everyone thinks  the F4u-1c equates to (wrongly of corse) since the F4U-1C will be perked accordingly to its  peers.
 
Now lets broaden the scope of thought!
If this is to remain a world war two sim then  to fill the plane set obviously HTC must look towards modeling earlier planes.

Therefore in order for this whole idea to work everything must be perked accordingly even a spitV  if it were pitted against a ME109E.
 
Argue all you want that it is the pilot  not the plane  but in the Main Arena of virtual flight sims this does not hold as much truth as it would in  real life.
 Right now I find the F4U-1C an excellent gun platform, good manuverability,decent speed and the latest plane in the planeset.
 Not the best (since that is subjective) but relative to many of the other planes it meets it does offer some advantages. When the later planes or more dangerous planes are introduced the effect of perking the 1C will diminish obviously but since the plane set hopefully will grow in both later and earlier  planes,each plane will have to be perked accordingly.

Again I state Perked is maybe a misnomer.
Maybe "valued" or "Priced" is a better term

[Ripsnort]

Karnak, I challenge you to answer Apaches question to Hooli (since you can be so diplomatic with sentences such as "your so dense")

"These guys who are currently flying that bird in numbers have to fly something.                    What is going to happen if the same numbers go to the Spit? In this case, because of the CV fun, the Seafire?"

Then what?  We perk until we have 4 or 5 A/C type?

[lazs]

is it fair that the spit5 is used 100% less than the spit 9?   Why is that?   Who cares, it needs to be fixed...

The logical way to do this is either make everyone start out in say a 202 and everquest their way up or...

make the 1C (current demonized plane) available to all but only on the last 3-5 days of the tour then....  Look at the "graph" and if any plane is 20% more popular then.... move it to the "uber week" then...... look at the graph again and if any plane is used (for whatever reason) 20% more than any other.... move it to "uber week" and then..... look at the graph.  etc. etc.

What a bunch of anal retentives... sheesh.  
lazs