Author Topic: Cannons vs 50s (Read 3371 times)

Lephturn · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2000, 07:14:00 AM »

You guys are right in that it isn't right to use Vila's skill as a record to "prove" anything. I'm just trying to illustrate that there is no major problem with .50 cal lethality, or high-kill count sorties like that by anyone would just not be possible IMHO. My own record is more representative, since I have a reasonable number of sorties of the last 2 tours in both the 1D and 1C Hogs. I'm about even on them last time I checked as far as K/D goes. The real point here is that nobody is doing any concrete testing to prove one side or the other. My analogy may be flawed, but I haven't seen anybody else pull out any hard data on the topic. You guys keep quoting your experience, so I'm quoting mine. I fly the F4U-1D and I don't think there is a problem with the .50 cal lethality. Sure, snapshots are less likely to do critically damage an enemy plane, but if I make them in convergence range I find I can take them down some of the time. This is just what I expect to see.

Hangtime, the snapshot I used on HT WAS a snapshot. I was too slow to do anything else except hold my nose up and hose away as he flew through my bullet stream. I guess the only mitigating circumstance would be that we were both very slow, so he passed through the bullet stream at low speed.

In regards to the paper tail on the Pony, I don't have enough experience to make a comparison. Bottom line, why don't you keep the records you suggested and post your findings? Pyro has modelled it as best he can, and the only way you'll change his mind is to gather up some data.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
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"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
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funked · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2000, 10:21:00 AM »

Cave - That F-86 kill was done with the M3 .50 cal, not the M2. The M3 had a cyclic rate of 1200 rpm. This is way more than the 750 rpm of the M2, and obviously makes it a much more dangerous weapon at all ranges.

214CaveJ · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2000, 10:41:00 AM »

be that as it may funked (and I'm not doubting you =), they both use the same round, yes? If so, it would just take a longer squeeze of the trigger to put out the same number of rounds and get the kill at that range.

Hangtime · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2000, 11:45:00 AM »

LOL... 5 rounds.. LOL.

I disagree. I'll check my data tonight and have another look at the situation; but frankly; 6 hammerin .50's will put a LOT more rounds on target.. the effect would be akin to a hot wire slicing thru foam block.

Decimating.

Hristo.. c'mon. My gunnery averages bely yer statement. why the personal attack? yer fargin precious LW stuff might get ruffed up by an accurate MG model? Sheesh.

Hang

CptTrips · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2000, 01:29:00 PM »

>Hristo.. c'mon.

I think you meant Fishu.

And pleeeeze Pyro, don't give Hang better guns.

Wab

Hristo · « **Reply #35 on:** February 23, 2000, 01:57:00 PM »

Fishu and Hristo are not the same person, if someone has any doubts

Hmm, this happened for second time in last few weeks, hmmm....

Pongo · « **Reply #36 on:** February 23, 2000, 02:08:00 PM »

you guys do sorta sound alike...

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 23, 2000, 02:30:00 PM »

was flying the D Hog today because i was curious (beacuse of this thread) .. i found it pretty lethal actually my K/D or K/sortie ratio is practically identical to the F4U 1C .. i'm not the very best shot and still managed quite a few kills...

There were just 2 or 3 incinedts where i'd have had a kill with the C hog and did only get a few hit sprites with the D.

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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew

funked · « **Reply #38 on:** February 23, 2000, 04:28:00 PM »

Cave,

"it would just take a longer squeeze of the trigger to put out the same number of rounds and get the kill at that range."

I'm not sure it works that way. You're assuming he was on target for the entire burst. If he was only on target for part of the burst, using a higher ROF gun would help I think. He's still a stud for making that shot though!

Hangtime · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2000, 04:28:00 PM »

Hristo.. WHUPS! My most sincere apologies.

Dammo.. my alligator mouth overloading my parakeet eyesight once again.

Again, sorry; sir.

Hang

funked · « **Reply #40 on:** February 23, 2000, 04:30:00 PM »

Hangtime, the 5 or 6 rounds calculation is correct for the specified rates of fire (750 rpm, 6 guns), target velocity (300 mph)and length (35 ft) with a 90 degree deflection angle.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-23-2000).]

CavemanJ · « **Reply #41 on:** February 23, 2000, 06:01:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by funked:
I'm not sure it works that way. You're assuming he was on target for the entire burst. If he was only on target for part of the burst, using a higher ROF gun would help I think. He's still a stud for making that shot though!

You have a point there, but the point I'm getting at is the .50s ARE lethal at 1600yds. And I can't remember our .50s in AH ever being that lethal, even when shooting at a non-manuvering bandit who was spraying&praying behind my buff at low 6.

Hangtime · « **Reply #42 on:** February 23, 2000, 06:08:00 PM »

Funked...

I hang my head.. I can find no fault with the math. In fact; If I'm not mistaken; the .50's on the P51 were at about 550 rounds per min.. less than what we're workin with I think.

Conversly; with the same math model, that damn plane should fly thru the zone of a cannon eguipped F4u and recieve no hits at all. Hunh.

Having seen the destructive power of the M2 in action first hand; I have a very healthy respect for the destructive power of the weapon. At 1200 yards we could chew up what ever we pointed it at. Basicly; if we could see it with the naked eye; we could kill it.

Awsome gun.. truly. Must be seen to be belived I guess. This is by no means a feeble gun system.

Gun camera footage from WWII also clearly shows devestating results for any A/C that crossed the convergence zone of six .50's..

The statement " ..a second was more than enough" is no exaggeration.

Now as to range.. definitly; we are seeing a reduced range model.. reports of accurate cyclic fire at 1200 to 1800 yards is not at all uncommon. To the best of my memory, these range figures are also stated in the FM's for the M2's of that era as well as mine.

So; math be damned; I'm stickin to my guns here.. the .50's in the sim are undermodeled IMHO.

Hang

Nashwan · « **Reply #43 on:** February 23, 2000, 08:26:00 PM »

Using the same figures as above an F4U-1C would get 2-3 hits on a crossing plane. More likely to get a kill than 5 .05 rounds nut still not that likely, IMHO.

Nashwan · « **Reply #44 on:** February 23, 2000, 08:37:00 PM »

Sorry if this shows up several times but something is going wrong when I try to post.
Using the same figures as above an F4U-1C would get 2-3 hits on a crossing plane. More likely to get a kill than 5 .05 rounds but still not that likely, IMHO.
If the plane is crossing in front of you, ie a classic snapshot, then giving a longer burst will not help as the target is within your field of fire for a limited time. Having a higher ROF would put more rounds on target however.
AFAIK the ROF on the .5 M2 was 720rpm and for the Hispano 20mm 650rpm.

Author Topic: Cannons vs 50s (Read 3371 times)

funked

214CaveJ

funked

funked