Negative-G push? or "stick stir"?

[TexMurphy]

There is alot of neg G usage in the arena that is gamey. This is just one of them. Its gamey but not stiring or exploiting flight model.

Its gamey because your head wount explode if you over do it. You wount feel excruciating pain as you do it.

Its not a undoable manouver its just one that a pilot wouldnt make very often.

Tex

[BlauK]

There is nothing bad form about playing a game the way it can be played. 

It is bad form only to whine about how others play it.

[Drex]

No way is what you described as stick stirring.  Nothing wrong with that move. 

Drex

[Steve]

This move catches me off guard once in a while where no matter how much I chop and get the plane dirty, I can't stay behind my target.  Fortunately it is easily countered or at least it's not hard to avoid being reversed and quickly killed. You have to quickly recognize the move and also decide if you can stay behind the target...closure dependent.   If you can't stay behind, simply vectoring your plane in a direction of the target's belly is facing, opposite of the way he would be turing if he pulled posituve G's,  you can get out of effective gun range before he can get a solution.

I think it's a real nifty move, considering how simple it is.  

[CAP1]

I've been here for a very long time. Since GEnie Airwarrior network   .  Too old to really care about scores, bragging rights, trying to "game" the game, etc.  I avoid HO's 100% of the time, and if I get tagged by a HO stream, I say "good for you!" no big deal.  If I get picked or vulched or ganged or rammed or shotdown for any reason, I say, "good one", my bad SA.  There's an endless supply of planes back at base..

To the point, stick stirring?

When I'm low n' slow and on the deck and someone is locked onto my 6, coming in hi-energy I do this:

Flip the right wing straight up, initiate a tight left flat turn, look out rearview to watch attacker.  When he/she flips their right wing up and starts the pull up, I chop throttle and push the stick forward into a negative-g push-over, until I Red-Out.  Roll wings level, and pull positive-G.  Sometimes, the attacker hangs in, and I'll repeat the negative-G push drill.

The veteran pilots kill me every single time, by hanging back, and tickling off short bursts.  The non-veterans fly out front and the reversal is complete.

I fly real airplanes (recreationally), and have flown aerobatic rated aircraft.  Doing what I just said (above) is absolutely do'able.  It is however, one of the most gut-wrenching, sickening feelings that you can imagine.  Look at a Sean Tucker video on YOutube, and imaging trying to follow him.

Occaisionally I get a PM calling me a "stick stirring SOB!"  In itself, no big deal as I really don't need validation from any armchair ace to tell me how to fly the AH sim.

But, I'm asking for a true (non vulgar) opinion from AH pilots with more than 5 yrs experience what do you think about negative-G pushover evasives?  Is it in bad form to do it?   Don't the act of trying to use net-lag by true  stick-stirring result lockup of the controls?  If some of the old hands say it's bad form, I'll stop doing it, and take my lumps, no problemo..

Thanks for your thoughts..


RV6

a question on this maneuver? when you push the stick forward, are you still banked, and simply pushing yourself out fo the bank, or do you roll level again, as you push over?

thanks@!

[Ack-Ack]

The maneuver you just descibed is not stick stirring. It is a little gamey in the fact that, as you said, it is gut wrenching and sickining in real life. That feeling would affect your shot when the enemy plane flew by. In the game it does not. The move is doable in real life. I do not consider it stick stirring.

What he described was no more 'gun wrenching and sickening in real life' then Hartmann's spin he used to do to acheive the same result (spoil aim and cause overshoot).  When you've got someone on your six determined to kill you, feeling a little queasy after a maneuver is a small price to pay for being able to get back home safely.

I don't think there is anything gamey about the maneuver rv6 described.


ack-ack

[morfiend]

 Personally I dont think it's stikstiring,but I do have a problem with the way redouts are modeled.

 It appears that you recover from a redout rather quickly and there's no extended period of redout as there is with the blackout.

 I have never experenced a true redout and therefore I cant comment from first hand experience,only from what I've heard or been told.So I dont take issue with the move itself,but would like to see some longer lasting affect from pushing the neg G's alittle to far or long.

 Maybe some blurriness,I'm not sure but I'd think that in RL the affect would hang around for some time and may make shooting rather difficult.

   

[rv6]

Well sirs, I've just read the concensus of some of the folks who (IMHO) are the very best of the BEST pilots in this game.  If YOU guys are OK with what I do, then the thoughts of anyone else means little.  The neg-G push will remain a viable last-ditch option in my book.

Thanks for the comments~

RV6


ps..  CAP1

I only do this when absolutely on the deck, out of alt, e, and speed.  If I rolled level and pushed?  I'd hit the ground/water instantly..  I do as you mentioned, from a 180deg, knife edge (wingtip straight up), push.  Instead of banking left, the plane banks to the right, ruining the attcker's gun solution, and disappearing below his dashpanel.

[CAP1]

Well sirs, I've just read the concensus of some of the folks who (IMHO) are the very best of the BEST pilots in this game.  If YOU guys are OK with what I do, then the thoughts of anyone else means little.  The neg-G push will remain a viable last-ditch option in my book.

Thanks for the comments~

RV6


ps..  CAP1

I only do this when absolutely on the deck, out of alt, e, and speed.  If I rolled level and pushed?  I'd hit the ground/water instantly..  I do as you mentioned, from a 180deg, knife edge (wingtip straight up), push.  Instead of banking left, the plane banks to the right, ruining the attcker's gun solution, and disappearing below his dashpanel.

aahh....got it. gonna try it too. i'm usually pretty much down on the deck, although lately, i've been finding myself up crazy high....

and btw....i agree with the rest of the guys......and see no reason to not use it.

[Chalenge]

Not stirring... one of those tricks that isnt tricky enough I think and shows desperation. It very well might save you if you have friends around and the attacker is an energy fighter that will not slow down because he wants to avoid the 'gang.'

The thing is... I see people try this against wirbles. 

[00AC00]

I believe that Saburo Sakai the Japanese Ace described this same manuever in his book. As I recall he seem to use it pretty regular.

Seems if it was used and worked in RL then it is a valid tactical move.

AC

[5PointOh]

Anything is better than the 190 desperation roll!

[2ADoc]

I flew airshows with my dad for a while, he had an SE5a and I had a replica Triplane.  We did WW1 dogfights, I used the negative alot, I did not like it, the quickest way to get Vertigo is to be looking over your shoulder, and go negative, in my opinion.  It did work, but it was uncomfortable.  if I had the choice of getting lead poisoning or getting vertigo, I will take Vertigo, and uncomfortable

[CAP1]

I flew airshows with my dad for a while, he had an SE5a and I had a replica Triplane.  We did WW1 dogfights, I used the negative alot, I did not like it, the quickest way to get Vertigo is to be looking over your shoulder, and go negative, in my opinion.  It did work, but it was uncomfortable.  if I had the choice of getting lead poisoning or getting vertigo, I will take Vertigo, and uncomfortable

i would have to wonder though? put yourself in the fighter pilots shoes.

you've just been drug somewhat low by that 109....you eventually killed him, but now you're seperated from your squad, and wingman. you're on the deck, heading back in the general direction of home, looking for landmarks, so you can verify where you are. you're stressed. tired. still have some adrennaline pumping.
 you do a quick scan, and catch a glint of something at your 4 high. you focus there. it's another 109 bearing down on you hard. being still low, you've not many options, so you roll into your turn, hoping he follows. he does, and when you think you're under his nose, you push that stick into the dash, and barley see him go barreling past ya as you've successfully forced him to overshoot. as you pull back 'round to try n saddle him up, you can see his wings rock a little as he tries to look rearward, trying to re-acquire you. it's too late, as you're just hitting the fire button, and watch a couple of hit sprites light up, and start a fuel leak. he tries to roll away from your gunfire, but this is the worst thing he could've done, as he's just doubled the size of himself as a target, as you press the fire button harder, as if it will cause your guns to fire more. his oil cooler ignites, and he rolls over into a death spiral.

 somehow, i think that the real life guys in that situation wouldn't feel sick, as they were too busy trying to stay alive. 

[Brooke]

Not the same as your maneuver described above, but here is an example of using negative g's by Erich Harmann.  The following is a quote from Harmann in the book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces: The Jagdflieger and their Combat Techniques," by Mike Spick.

Hartmann:  "Fly quickly straight ahead and push the rudder so you fly straight ahead skid that will not be recognized by the attacker. IF he opens fire, you push for negative G's down left or right, not forgetting through the whole maneuver to push the rudder. Your attacker will hang with negative G's in his belt, unable to pull the trigger. With that maneuver, I saved my life several times."

As for stick stirring (which is a different thing), I think of it as just a more-enthusiastic version of jinking.  In some planes (like the La-5, which I flew in the Red Storm scenario), I have a very hard time hitting folks to employ heavy-duty jinking, so it is frustrating to me.  But if it kept them alive, then it was a good move on their part -- that's how I look at it.