Author Topic: Dora charts  (Read 1666 times)

Offline C_R_Caldwell

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Dora charts
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2001, 06:59:00 PM »
Buzz is right re: most D-9s that had already been built by late in '44 being retrofitted with MW 50 whilst those on the production line received it from the start.As far as JG 26's Doras getting their butts spanked by Tempests, at that stage in the war, Dora units were lucky to put up formations of 12 a/c at a time (and that's a whole Geschwader!), often fielding =<8 a/c at a time, whilst large formations of Tempests & Spit XIV's roamed Germany in Wing-size or greater (40+ a/c)at will.Even the ME 262 was often thoroughly spanked in those conditions!I'm not commenting on what a/c was better overall, though I think the Tempest was patently superior <20k (the alt at which most AH MA combat takes place in), but comparing the battles of the last few months of the war in Europe is VERY problematic.

I have a couple of books devoted solely on the Dora, which have great photos as well colour views of the Doras in question.All the Doras in question were examples fielded during 1945.One of the books is Jerry Crandall's excellent work on the Doras of the "Galland Circus".That book looks at the Doras that flew top cover protection for JV 44's 'turbos' .

Of the 4 Doras depicted in that book, 1 is an early production Dora-9 using an A-8 canopy & central fuselage with the rear fuselage filler.The other 3 Doras are 2 later-model Dora-9s (standard bubble canopy & D-9 fuselage etc), and the 3rd is a D-11.

Of the 4 a/c involved, 3 use MW 50 (it's easy to tell - there is a triangle with MW 50 written within it next to the rear fuse tank filler hole) including the D-11, whilst the 4th example (a later-model D-9) strangely had no MW 50 marking, but had a small yellow circle on the port side of the upper cowl.On closer inspection, it turns out this D-9 did not in fact use MW 50, but was fitted with a 'Laderdrucksteigerungs-Rüstsatz' fiel-modification which was, in Crandall's words, a " 'Supercharger pressure' boosted engine for increased horsepower from the Jumo 213A1 ".

My other Dora stuff shows almost all the D-9's depicted as using MW-50 (some are only port views so I can't tell what fuel they are using).

The point is, if we are going to be historically accurate, we should be flying a boosted D-9.Just because it'll be very fast doesn't mean it should be perked.My God, the late model G-10 modelled in AH can clock at over 450mph TAS, but it's not perked! The boosted D-9 will have excellent performance, but it doesn't have the turn rate of a P-51 (or even a 190A-5).It will be similar to a G-10 in performance, with better roll, but poorer turn.

All this talk about putting restraints on the D-9 so that it can exist happily in AH is ridiculous IMHO.It will fit in nicely with a/c like the P-51 and G-10.Don't forget that whilst the D-9 will have excellent roll at low-med speeds, at hi-speed (>400 IAS) the pony will probably roll much better than the D-9, as well as being *easily* able to out-turn it.The D-9 will be a great match for the P-51, but that's all - a match.

There are issues in having a/c like the D-9, P-51, G-10 etc in AH unperked, but the only way to fix that is to either i9ntroduce an RPS, or make the late-war fighters that are currently unperked as "low perk" a/c.Why should the Dora-9 be treated differently than the P-51 & get its legs chooped off? We should be using the same rules of inclusion for all fighters, either that, or use different rules.

If a boosted D-9 deserves to be perked, I expect the P-51, G-10 as well as that 4 cannoned wank-machine, the Chog to be perked too.Some ppl would like to throw in the N1K2-J as well- leave the Dora-9 alone plz...

PS:-Btw, all the machines in Crandall's book are using 96-octane fuel...



[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 03-05-2001).]

Offline C_R_Caldwell

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« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2001, 12:11:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by mx22:

Difference between F8F, Spit21 and other Allied planes you mentioned and Do335,He162, Ta152C, 109K14, Me262A with Mk103 and rest, is that Allied planes had acctually existed in more then 1 plane, more many of them were starting to go into service at the end of war. Not so with German counterparts.

mx22[/B]

The He 162 eventually equipped a whole Gruppe by the end of hostilities.More He 162's entered operational service than Spit Mk.21's .It turned out the jet-fuel supply was so scarce & conditions so chaotic that few Volksjagërs flew more than a handful of sorties & only 1 kill was recorded (a Typhoon) & even that wasn't properly confirmed.

I wish Allied-a/c loving users would stop bleating about the fact that we're getting more Axis fighters than Allied fighters this time around.Until the 190F-8 is released, the Axis-flying players in AH will not have a single dedicated jabo fighter in the planeset.The Allies have a/c like the P-47, F4U, P-38 & Typhoon which are all excellent fighter-bombers.

Let's not forget that most of the upcoming Axis a/c being added to the planeset are variants of existing a/c.Let's face it, if you want to fly Axis, u get the 109,190,Zeke,N1K2-J, & C.202/205 (the 205 essentially being a variant of the 202 in much the same way the Spit IX is a variant of the Mk V).What unperked Axis bombers do we get to fly? The Ju-88, period.We don't have an SM.79 Sparviero, G4M Betty or Do 217K (or many others).That will be made up for somewhat by having the Ar 234, but it will, rightly, be perked.We don't have any Axis heavy bombers at all.

Admittedly, the He 177 was the only Axis buff built in any significant numbers, & even then only about 1,000 were built (though no more than 150 Chogs were built, & that hasn't stopped it from being in the planeset).The Fw 200 could be considered a buff, but it was a recon/maritime heavy bomber, and not a conventional "heavy".

So now we're gonna have 4 x Fw 190 variants (5 if you include the Ta 152) & 4 x 109s - big deal! Those who are partial to Allied a/c are getting the Tempest, arguably the best fighter of WW2 < 20-23k, as well as the Yak-9T (another excellent Allied fighter), and the superb (and unperked) La-7 !!!

The Spit XIV will undoubtedly make its way to AH in the next few months.When it arrives, many will insist on it being unperked (with some justification I may add).With a/c like the P-51, Bf/Me 109G-10, D-9 & Spit XIV & La-7 unperked, HTC is going to have a serious look at introducing an RPS (which many will find objectionable - I mean, what's 'kbman' & 'creamo' gonna fly ;?D ?) or using some other system like making these late-war a/c low-point perk planes.As it is now,at least 50% of AH users fly 3 fighters - the Chog, Spit & N1K2-J...

[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 03-06-2001).]

funked

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« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2001, 12:38:00 AM »
 
Quote
Jg301 was completely transformed into Ta152H, and was sent into battle as a Ta152 jagdgeschwader...

Baloney.  They had one Staffel.  Not a Jagdgeschwader, not a Gruppe, a Staffel.

Offline maik

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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2001, 01:32:00 AM »
 
Quote
Baloney. They had one Staffel. Not a Jagdgeschwader, not a Gruppe, a Staffel.

Great Statement Funked  . But I am not quiet sure that is right. AFAIK the complete Stab and III./JG301 were equipped with Ta's and I: and II. Gruppe were partially equipped with them.

Will check sources on weekend.


Maik

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2001, 08:16:00 AM »
Maik

No matter what you call the unit, there were very few aircraft that were operational at any one time.

The largest number of operational aircraft was when JG301 was delivered their initial batch of aircraft. From memory I believe it was around 12-13 aircraft (all Ta152H0's).

Typical operational unit strength was 7-8 aircraft at any one time that could actually make it into the air.

So by allied terms, there was never more than a single squadron of Ta152's available at any one time, and it was usually about a 1/2 a squadron.

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Offline Naudet

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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2001, 11:49:00 AM »
To the TA152 production numbers:

150 TA153 H-0 and H-1 were build, JG301 got them, ME262 i think more than 500 build.

The P51H reached about 600 productions plane, same with late F4Us or F8, so dont tell us there was only 1 GE plane of all that types, cause this is BS.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2001, 12:05:00 PM »
Naudet, your completely wrong on Ta152 production.

There were either 46 or 48 (I would have to go back and count) Ta152's ever complete built. This is compiled from both RLM and FockeWulf factory documents, which detail assinged werk #'s.

Of those around 15 were destroyed on the ground before they were ever delivered to any combat unit.

2 Ta152's built as unarmed recon E models were picked up by JG301 pilots  who configured them in the field to C model armament standards.
3 Ta152H1's were built.
All of the rest were Ta152H0's.

All of this information comes from the Ta152 book that is quoted here quite frequently anymore. It is researched by a German Author, using German documents and archival data/information.

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[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline R4M

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« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2001, 12:13:00 PM »
I think that the 500 me262 figure falls too short. I've read quite many times that 1500 me262s were built, although only some 600 reached the front, and even less were flown in combat.

 

Offline maik

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« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2001, 12:20:00 PM »
Verm,

first of all, I didn't like the tone of the reply I quoted, that is the reason why I usually don't join those discussions here, or if I do i tend to get sarcastic. Sorry for that btw.

I agree that not all that were build, were not combat ready all the time. I read that JG301 even had to blow some of them up because they couldn't get transfered to another field.

Production - numbers are:

ta152-H0 - ca12 - Werknummer 150001 - 150012
ta152-H1 - ca35 - Werknummer 150001 - 150055

The thing is that the Ta152 saw prolly more combat than c-Hogs did, guess they saw more than they wanted to see.

Maik

[This message has been edited by maik (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline mx22

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« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2001, 01:19:00 PM »
maik,

Verm has already stated his reference, so I think it's time for you to do the same. I bet many here will be interested from where you getting it.

Btw, unless my math is wrong, those Wr numbers cover only 65 airframes, of which 11 are overlapping numbers (I dont know that much about LW system of Wr, but it seems that it means that some of the planes from Wr.150001 to 150012 range were used to built both, H0 and H1 versions).

P.S. In regards of acctual combat; it was discussed above. Just because Allied planes were tested and new squadrons equiped with them in safe environment, it doesn't make them (planes and pilots) less capable, rather it's in reverse with German planes and pilots being on the bad end.

To C_R_Caldwell:
There are no confirmed kills in He-162. Period. Rest doens't count.

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline maik

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« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2001, 02:38:00 PM »
Focke - Wulf, Fw190/Ta152 by Manfred Griehl/Joachim Dressel 2nd Edition from 1997.

Authors used Data fromArchivs of DASA, MBB, Deutsches Museum Munich, NASM. Also used Personal Data of Flugkapitän Hans Sander. Also stood in close contact with Eddie Creek and Richard Smith.

Production Data und Werknummern are based on original FockeWulf - and RLM Documents.


Hope this is enuff.

Oh , yes Ta152-H0 were 150001 to 150017
Ta152-H1 were # 150018 to 150051.

#150018 was Werksprototyp fuer Baureihe Ta152-H1

#150027 and 150030 were refitted as Prototype for Ta152-C3 (V27 and V28)

I am not discussing plane capabilities here, so far   .

Who's says that about the He162 kills you mx?

Verm, could you tell me more about the ta152 book you have?.

Maik


Geez some of you guys have an attitude, think i stay out here further on  .

[This message has been edited by maik (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
Sorry if my "tone" bothered somebody, it wasn't intended too.

And I'm not the only one to quote this reference, I know Nath-BDP has it and several other people have used it and quoted widely from it recently.

My reference:

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Focke-Wulf Ta152, The Story of the Luftwaffe's Late War, High Altitude Fighter, by Dietmar Hartmann, ISBN # 0-7643-0860-2

Originally published as: (In german)

Focke-Wulf Ta152: Der Weg zum Hohenjager, by Aviatic Verlag.
-----------------------

It is available from all the online bookstores, and is easily the best Ta152 book I have ever seen.

This book is the source of all those nice Focke Wulf factory Ta152 and Fw190 performance charts that have been shown on this BBS over and over lately.

Here are the ones that I scanned originally, and many have used in their discussions on Ta152's and Fw190's (both A & D series)
 http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-1.jpg

http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-2.jpg  

http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-3.jpg  

http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-4.jpg  

http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-5.jpg

If I get some time tomorrow, I will scan the pages that list the known werk #'s.

Basically it lists werk #'s 150 001 thru 150 040, and numbers 150 167, 150 168, and 150 169.

From what can be figured out, the werk numbers 167,168, and 169 were the H1's. Hence the break in assigned numbers.

Also according to this source werk #'s 150 027 and 150 028, were explicitly Ta152H0's that were used at Sorau as prototype aircraft in the DB603 Engine test program and the Ta-152C test program.

FYI No production aircraft were ever produced at Sorau, only the V prototypes.

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Vermillion
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[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2001, 08:13:00 PM »
Here are the scans I promised with the Werk#'s.

Cottbus Production Aircraft:
 http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-werk-1.jpg
 http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-werk-2.jpg

Sorau/Adelheide Prototype Aircraft:
 http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-werk-proto.jpg

I hope this helps.

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Vermillion
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Offline maik

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« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2001, 01:28:00 AM »
Verm, wasn't you, that sounded, well , let me say different     , was the jerk who stated i.e. that the Ta152 didn't flew any operational sorties and stuff like that.

As for Numbers thanks for the scans, think i am gonna order that book next week  .

All I can say now is that the only difference I found in my source were on 2 or 3 certain numbers. AND that H1 production started with 150018.

Don't have the time to present some scans before sunday though.

ISBN 3-613-01681-8 (German), dunno if there have an english translated version yet.

Oh, and I won't argue who's book is right or not    

Maik


[This message has been edited by maik (edited 03-07-2001).]

Offline mx22

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« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2001, 08:58:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by maik:
Who's says that about the He162 kills you mx?

No comfirmation, no kill for all the "historical" purposes.

Going back to Ta-152, I don't think I ever said that Ta-152 didn't fly operational sorties. I just pointed out that Allied late war newcomers (planes) might not have reached frontline units, but that's only because tests and training was done far behind the front lines.

mx22