Author Topic: 109 flight model  (Read 12893 times)

Offline Lusche

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2009, 11:21:00 PM »
(...) it's a suspicious-sounding account to me.

That's the understatement of the year  :lol

Quote
The German pilot points at his tail, obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going to be his 201 kill!

Pretty dramatic, isn't it?  :rolleyes:

Actually the style reminded me of certain tales by AH fellows in Oclub...   ;)


« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 11:23:11 PM by Lusche »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2009, 11:21:07 PM »
spotted a few myself but it seems pretty pervasive recounted on many sites so i am not sure of the original source ...

OTOH i didn't present it as anything but an entertaining account
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2009, 12:10:54 AM »
Wow! Both a 109 and a P51 dumping flaps in combat!

Didn't Hartmann later say that it wasn't him in that fight?  Don't recall seeing him mention any noteworthy fights like that in his biography and from what I've read about him that throat slashing motion would have been uncharacteristic of him.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 12:12:56 AM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2009, 12:16:35 AM »
red heart could have been jg77 ...

a couple of 200+ guys in that squad as well ...

anybody know where they were stationed in jan 45?
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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blah blah Blah
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Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2009, 12:33:42 AM »
Blonde Knight of Germany has a section on Hartmann fighting Mustangs.  He claimed 7 and made a high speed bail out to survive a fight with 8 51s.  All in early 45.  Probably 31st, 325th or 52nd FG Mustangs of the MTO would be my guess.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2009, 03:53:56 AM »
Bolt,

Not all aircraft overheat like that.  In IL2 if you run at wep for even a short time, your engine will break.  It is complete BS and, if anything, even gamier than the method AH uses.  Read some history instead of just manuals.

Wings of Prey is the same.  Some think that just because you add in 'complex engine management' that some how makes the game and flight model more realistic.


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Offline Oldman731

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #126 on: December 31, 2009, 09:51:53 AM »
i have some actual AARs he showed me of the use of extreme flaps in combat, so consider this a preview of me correcting myself with more coming later


Here's a somewhat better documented account of flap deployment by a 51 and a 109 in a dogfight.  I've posted it lots of times before, so if you've already read it, skip to the next post.  Hey, I spent so much time typing it that I want to get some use out of it!

- oldman

From JG 26 - Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, by Donald L. Caldwell (Ivy Books, New York 1991), ISBN 0-8041-1050-6 (First Ballentine Edition, June 1993), at page 276:

[The following occurred on the afternoon of September 17, 1944 - the first day of Operation Market-Garden]:

The Third Gruppe [of JG26] also fought a battle with Mustangs, with ruinous consequences for itself.  In mid-afternoon, Major Mietusch assembled about fifteen Bf 109s of his scattered command and headed for the landing zones, climbing all the way.  The weather had taken a turn for the worse, and there was a continuous layer of thin cloud at 15,000 feet.  The Germans climbed through it, and then, while above the Dutch-German border, Mietusch spotted a squadron of P-51s below them.  He radioed, “Otter Mietusch, I am attacking!” and dove through the cloud.  His first burst of fire destroyed the Number 4 plane of the trailing cover flight.  Oblt. Schild hit the Number 2 Mustang’s drop tank, and it dove away trailing a solid sheet of flame.  The events of the next few minutes are best stated in the words of the leader of that P-51 flight, Lt. William Beyer of the 361st Fighter Group’s 376th Squadron:

*          *          *

I was the flight leader at the tail end of the squadron.  We had flown back and forth between checkpoints for a couple of hours.  My wingmen apparently got tired of looking around for enemy aircraft.  Only by the grace of God did I happen to look behind us at that particular moment, because in no more than a couple of seconds the enemy would have shot the whole flight down.

I saw about fifteen German fighters closing fast with all their guns firing.  I immediately broke 180 degrees and called out the enemy attack.  My Number 4 man went down in flames, and my wingman got hit and spun out.  I headed straight back into the German fighters and went through the whole group, just about in the center of them.  We were separated by only a few feet...

I immediately made another 180-degree turn, picked out one of them, and started to chase it.  The rest of the fighters zoomed back up into the clouds and disappeared.  We made many violent high-G maneuvers with wide open throttle.  When I started to close and fire, I noticed that his plane seemed to have stopped in the air.  I had to decide whether to shoot and run, or to try to stop my plane.  I cut throttle, lowered flaps, and dropped my wheels - I still kept closing.  I had to fishtail and do flat weaves to stay behind him.  This maneuver was repeated three times, and on one occasion I almost cut his tail off, we were so close...

Then we started into steep dives.  The last one was at around 1,000 feet with flaps down.  This last maneuver was deadly and nerve-racking.  He went straight down toward the ground, hoping I couldn’t pull out.  If I pulled out early, he could have come in behind me, so I stayed with him.  If we had had our wheels down when we pulled out, we would have been on the ground.

It was after this pullout that I finally was able to get my sights lined up and fire at him.  I must have hit him with the first burst, because he kept turning and went into the ground and broke up.  Knowing the caliber of this German pilot, I am sure that if I had taken the time to get off some shots when he was slowing down he could have possibly shot me down or made a getaway.  My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly.

*          *          *

Lt Beyer’s victim was Klaus Mietusch.  Mietusch was one of the most fascinating individuals in the Geschwader’s history.  He was a career officer, had joined the Geschwader in 1938, and was its senior pilot in length of service when he died at age twenty-five.  His early combat career was marked by a seemingly endless series of failures and frustrations.  A member of the successful 7th Staffel under Muencheberg, he did not come into his own until he succeeded to the command and led it on detached assignment in Russia in 1943.  He was the opposite of the typical extroverted, self-confident fighter pilot.  He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will.  According to Priller, Mietusch’s combat motto was, “Bore in, until the enemy is as large as a barn door in your sights.”  Again quoting Priller, duty as Mietusch’s wingman was an “unforgettable experience.”  Mietusch was shot down ten times and was wounded at least four times.  He was said never to have turned down a mission, and he had logged an incredible 452 combat sorties at the time of his death.  His seventy-two victories brought the award of the Oak Leaves to his Knights’s Cross, two months after his death.

Offline thorsim

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2009, 10:44:31 AM »
maybe i was unclear all along with my reservations RE: the flap usage ...

i understand and always have understood their value in dumping speed as noted in the two accounts above,
i just was uncomfortable with the extreme maneuvers of a dog fight with full flaps extended.  
even in the account i posted the 51 pilot noted the lack of ability to go nose up very far with his flaps all the way out.

now i have some accounts of fights i will post with my official crow eating post but it was not dumping speeds that bugged me earlier it was more the rolling, up down, quick scissor stuff that bugged me ...

i still as a virtual pilot would go for establishing more of an energy advantage if a pilot i had defensive dumped his speed.  however as i have posted earlier other real world pilots took the other tack and i have finally seen the proof and will be posting it soon ...

however the two accounts above were not exactly representative of my reservations about the use of flaps in combat.  

i was hoping to clarify, not further confuse, i am not sure how successful i have been ...

;)

+S+

t  
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blah blah Blah
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Offline Motherland

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2009, 11:00:42 AM »
Blonde Knight of Germany has a section on Hartmann fighting Mustangs.  He claimed 7 and made a high speed bail out to survive a fight with 8 51s.  All in early 45.  Probably 31st, 325th or 52nd FG Mustangs of the MTO would be my guess.
June '44 ;)
He mentions seeing American fighters along with Russian fighters in Czechoslovakia later, however there aren't any dates mentioned and no victories for mustangs recorded in the log after June '44 at the end of the Blond Knight.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:08:49 AM by Motherland »

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2009, 04:08:09 PM »
It's a matter of taste I guess - since the basic line of argument can be used by anyone. For others, having to memorize at which specific altitudes a plane performs better, which has a better absolute performance, when to drop flaps and when not and etc etc.. all can be equally pain in the ass, since the overall 'feeling' of aerial combat may be all they need to feel immersion - in which case these players would prefer stuff like "relaxed realism" and etc..

I agree that tapping around the keys can be an annoyance, but ofcourse IMO that's the whole point of it. Some planes are more cumbersome to control, others are simple and user-comfy. This gives each plane type an individual characteristic which, to me, is no different from some planes turning better than others, others climbing better, others diving faster.. and etc..

Ofcourse, we cannot expect a game developer to model 100% interactive cockpits and game pilots to learn to fly a plane exactly the way they should be flown... but how a plane was managed is also a part of combat, and some planes do have an advantage over others in this aspect. If there is a reasonable way to mimic and implement this aspect into a game without going down the MSFS "mouse-click everything" approach, it's how 1C did it in IL-2 - it works.

Kweassa, you have a good, balanced perspective.  I might add that lacking CEM does change the performance of the aircraft because cooling systems add drag.  For example, if you fly the P-51D frequently enough in Il-2 you learn that the best setting for sustained combat is 95% manifold and 95% prop-pitch, with the radiator closed, and you can maintain a very high airspeed indefinitely.

Bolt64, it's funny to hear you say that the American planes are better in Aces High.  If there's any plane that's been whined about the most here, it's the P-51.  The newest Il-2 mods are darn pretty, but it's highly dubious when amateurs start adding their own aircraft with "improved" flight models, and I doubt you'll see many HL servers offering them for online play.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2009, 04:39:02 PM »
June '44 ;)
He mentions seeing American fighters along with Russian fighters in Czechoslovakia later, however there aren't any dates mentioned and no victories for mustangs recorded in the log after June '44 at the end of the Blond Knight.

Yeah, and the date given in the story of the Mustang vs. Hartmann fight, Hartmann was probably already in Czechoslovakia.


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Offline Guppy35

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #131 on: January 01, 2010, 12:48:35 AM »
June '44 ;)
He mentions seeing American fighters along with Russian fighters in Czechoslovakia later, however there aren't any dates mentioned and no victories for mustangs recorded in the log after June '44 at the end of the Blond Knight.

Hmm. Had the book in my hand when I said 45.  That was the time mentioned in the chapter callled "Mustangs".  If it was Summer 44 he'd probably have bumped into the Russian Shuttle run 51 escorts

One of the Mustang fights he talks about was when the Mustangs and Russian fighters got into it after the 109s dove through.
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Offline BrownBaron

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #132 on: January 01, 2010, 04:26:46 AM »
Uhm....im no expert, but the author mentions that he thinks he is "hottest pilot in the USAAF" but the USAAF was formed AFTER WW2, during the war it was the Army Air Corps, or something of this nature, right...?

EDIT: I looked it up, and the USAAF was formed on September 18th, 1947. Two years after this dogfight supposedly took place, im kind of doubting the truth behind this account...anyone else?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 04:29:10 AM by BrownBaron »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #133 on: January 01, 2010, 05:24:32 AM »
Uhm....im no expert, but the author mentions that he thinks he is "hottest pilot in the USAAF" but the USAAF was formed AFTER WW2, during the war it was the Army Air Corps, or something of this nature, right...?

EDIT: I looked it up, and the USAAF was formed on September 18th, 1947. Two years after this dogfight supposedly took place, im kind of doubting the truth behind this account...anyone else?

The United States Airforce (USAF) was created in 1947, the United States Army Airforce (USAAF) was created in 1942 by executive order that split the US Army into three autonomous components, Army Ground Forces, Service of Supply (later changed to Army Service Forces in 1943) and the Army Airforce.  Prior to the executive order, the USAAF was the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC).

I don't dispute the fight took place, it very may well have but I don't think it was Hartmann at the controls of the German plane. 

ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 109 flight model
« Reply #134 on: January 01, 2010, 05:29:44 AM »
Hmm. Had the book in my hand when I said 45.  That was the time mentioned in the chapter callled "Mustangs".  If it was Summer 44 he'd probably have bumped into the Russian Shuttle run 51 escorts

One of the Mustang fights he talks about was when the Mustangs and Russian fighters got into it after the 109s dove through.

If it was the summer of 1944, wouldn't JG 52 have faced groups from the 15th AF over Romania as they defended Ploesti?


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song