Author Topic: I have reached a depressing (for me) conclusion...  (Read 1963 times)

Offline juzz

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I have reached a depressing (for me) conclusion...
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2000, 06:27:00 PM »
"Mosquito B.MkIX" - Somehow I doubt we will ever see a Mossie with 70-series Merlins, it's too uber.  

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2000, 03:39:00 AM »
As long as it is historical, it is OK, IMO.
Any Spitfires, Tempests, Mosquitos, but 262s, Doras or even Ta 152s as well. Of course, one should try to take their historical availability into account. While perking the Dora would be a favor to the Mustang crowd, perking the Ta 152 is surely a must.

In a duel, Dora would almost always lose against Spitfire XIV. That is, if there is not an option to disengage, you have to stay and fight it out.

However, in the arena Dora can always outdive Spit XIV and outrun it on the deck. Guess which plane will be better arena fighter  .

Tempest ? Tough, but Dora would probably roll better. Might be interesting.

But Meteor, come on. There are dozens of other planes which deserve to get modeled before it. 262 deserves that way before the Meteor. Those two are never in the same league. One fought and fought hard. The other one just buzzed after flying bombs.

Did Meteor fight against other planes ? Did it shoot down anything ? Was it shot down ?

How about this idea ? Make 262 a perk plane for (and only for) Luftwaffe pilots. You want to fly 262 ? Prove yourself with 109 or 190. As in real life.

Wanna play EZ mode gunnery with C-Hog ? Fine, but do not expect to get a chance to fly a 262. Maybe some late war P-47 or F4U-4, but that's it.


Offline Pongo

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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2000, 08:49:00 AM »
In real life many of the 262 pilots proved themselves in the Ju88 series. Many others were rookies.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2000, 10:35:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo:
How about this idea ? Make 262 a perk plane for (and only for) Luftwaffe pilots. You want to fly 262 ? Prove yourself with 109 or 190. As in real life.

Keep dreaming Hristo.

If the 262 gets added, and it certainly has a much more compelling case than the Meteor to be added, there is no reason to force sombody to fly aircraft that they don't like in order to fly the most uber of fighters.

BTW Hristo, I wasn't suggesting that HTC add the Meteor, I was looking for a 3rd late war RAF fighter and it was the only thing that I could come up with.  I would not be surprised, however, if HTC adds the Meteor MkIII at the same time as they add the Me262 (just so you can whine about it).  Keep in mind that if the Germans had been significantly more successful with the 262, the Allies would have started to escort B-17s with Meteors.  Meteors WERE deployed to the continent in March of 1945 to counter the 262, but they never met.  I'd rather not see any jets in AH.

Sisu
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[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-16-2000).]
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Offline Hristo

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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2000, 01:09:00 AM »
Karnak, you say 262 is uber? I recall you saying it is just a nice buff hunter some months ago  .

Anyway, why would a C-Hog dweeb get a chance to put his dirty hands on that beauty ? Let him fly LW only before he gets that chance.

And your IF, IF, IF, regarding the Meteor is just another IF. You prove that Meteor is an what-IF plane in your mind, just reread your post. B-17s escorted by Meteors is the biggest IF I have read on this board. Luftwaffe has many IF issues too. If DB could be fitted to 190, IF Ta 152 came earlier, IF 262 wasn't delayed, IF there was more high quality fuel. But they are just IFs.

Keep dreaming  .

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2000, 01:53:00 AM »
Going by its armement. The Meteor could be one hell of a plane. Might make it better then the 262.


Offline Hristo

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« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2000, 02:20:00 AM »
Exactly.

But, it did not fight  

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2000, 02:45:00 PM »
It did fight, but by then the Luft rarely put up a fight. The Meteor has as strong (or weak) a case for inclusion as the Ta152.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2000, 02:52:00 PM »
Hristo,
Read my post.  I said "NO JETS."

As far as the Meteor goes, I reported its factual historical use in WWII and what they WERE preparring to use it for, not an excuse for them to add it to AH.  You're the one who is stuck on the Meteor being added, I don't want the thing in AH.

262 is that powerful because it is immune to fighters if the pilot has any SA at all.  It CAN get fighters, but if they see it a hard break will make them basiclly immune and the 262 shouldn't bother with a 2nd pass.  Just go look for some other prey.  Certainly it'd be the best bomber killer though.

Sisu
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[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-17-2000).]
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MC202

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I have reached a depressing (for me) conclusion...
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2000, 05:53:00 PM »
Karnak Said:
> Certainly it'd (the 262) be the best bomber  killer though.
> Sisu
> -Karnak

In one of the "other" games I found a bombless light A-26 to be the best bomber killer. Takes one to know one I guess :-)

MC202
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[This message has been edited by MC202 (edited 10-17-2000).]

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2000, 12:55:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan:
It did fight, but by then the Luft rarely put up a fight. The Meteor has as strong (or weak) a case for inclusion as the Ta152.

Where did Meteor fight ? Against what ? Please inform us. Somehow I don't believe that.

Ta 152, OTOH, fought. There is well known story from W. Reschke.

Offline flakbait

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2000, 02:17:00 AM »
Here's my take on everything. The Meteor... All it ever did was chase down V1s, the same job the P-61B in British hands did. Should it be added as a Perk Plane? Yep. The round and round argument basically boils down to this: For every aircraft the Luftwaffe put up, the Allies had something slightly better. This is true in EVERY case. The D9 would get chopped to pieces by any competant Spit 14 driver. So in order to fly any German aircraft with even remote effectiveness, you have to know how to fight.

A Spit with an altitude advantage is a nightmare for me, and I drive 109s. I agree that most any late war RAF aircraft have to be Perked. The same goes for the Ta-152 series and the jets. If a Komet shows up, Perk the sucker. As it stands now all I see in H2H games are C-hogs, Nikis, Mudstains and 109-G10s. Early war would cease to exist when those aircraft [perks] show up. Instead of getting a G10 with full fuel + drop tank to hit that Lanc, you'd grab a Komet. If enemy fighters are swarming in, you'd saddle up in a Spit 14.

It's the same old round and round arguments. 1.05 WILL change this, and those changes MUST be factored in to your debates. Strat is horribly under-used. 1.05 will add in more targets that HAVE to be hit. A ship parked 2 grids from your field means one of two things.

1) Possible bombardment
2) Enemy carrier fighters

I've read about most of these aircraft you're discussing. Any Spit beyond a Mk X would mean at least a G10 required to kill it. Put an experienced pilot in the cockpit and you'd better grab what he's driving. Why? There's no other way to kill him. Tempests, D9s, Meteors, Spit 14s, Ta-152s; this debate could go on forever.

What do you feel would drastically change current conditions in the Main? What should be done to make things better, NOT worse? First, check the gun calculations to see if something was missed or a typo snuck in. Then do the same for the Flight Modeling. Torque, spins, roll rates; check it all. Once that's done, and broken things have been repaired, find a solution to the current problem. That problem being, the lack of early war aircraft.

If all you want to do is scream around in a P-51H or Ta-152, then go offline and have at it. Raid a H2H game where only '44-'45 aircraft are allowed. Hit a Late War arena for all I care. What is needed in the MA is balance. A Spit V versus a 109 F4 is balance. The same goes for a Zeke versus an F6F, or an La-7 against a 109 G2. Want ground attack? Throw in an Il-2, Hs-129, Panzer V Panther, Sherman, Churchill Mk.4; what ever floats your boat.

Bottom line: Should jets be allowed in Aces High. Answer: Yes. Why? They were built and in combat. I don't care if that combat was blowing up V1s or killing B-17s. The same goes for ANY other aircraft. If it saw combat in WW2, it should be included.

Perk Planes: I define this as any aircraft that would completely unbalance either A) this board or B) the game. Included in both categories are:

Spit 14
Ta-152, any model
Any Jet
Komet
Tempest, any mark
P-47M
P-51H
P-61C

That list alone could be expanded to well over 100 aircraft of various models. So, if you've got an idea on how to work a Meteor or Spit or P-51H or a Ta-152, let's hear it. Instead of going round and round on the subject, I'd like to hear some ideas on HOW to work those aircraft in to a given arena. If this means a rolling plane set, then it means an RPS. As long as your solution fixes the problem and does not cause any of its own, run with it.

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Flakbait
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"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000


[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 10-18-2000).]

Offline Nashwan

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I have reached a depressing (for me) conclusion...
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2000, 02:35:00 AM »
Meteors were based in Holland in 1945 and flew offensive sweeps and ground attack missions over Germany. They never encountered Luft aircraft, but they did attack German military ground targets.
I don't think the P61 was ever used by the RAF. It wsouldn't have been suitable for intercepting V-1s because it was a lot slower than Mosquito night fighters.
The problem with perking the Spit 14 and Tempest is it leaves rthe RAF with nothing better than the Spit 9. That's bad enough now, but if the D9 comes out unperked...

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2000, 04:15:00 AM »
Flakbait, I agree on one thing. Put a newbie in Spit XIV and a newbie in D-9 and Spitdweeb will win all the time. HMMV.

However, if both Spit and D-9 pilot know what to expect out of their rides, you might have a different picture. In HTH, Spit dweeb still wins. In big arena vulchfest, hmmm. Dora might just be a better plane.

Ability to disengage by pointing the nose down is by far more useful in the arena than turn or climb advantage. High speed control and good cockpit visibility also aid to that.

Generally, I would say that D-9 pilot has to be better than average to be successfull. Not so for a Spit XIV jock. But D-9 offers advantages over Spitfire not instantly visible to a newbie.

But than again that's all the fun when picking the LW ride. The challenge  

Offline flakbait

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I have reached a depressing (for me) conclusion...
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2000, 05:13:00 AM »
[gotta love Joe Baugher's work]

P-61A and B models did indeed shoot down V1s. Proof? Got it right here just scroll down to European Theater.

 
Quote
The first P-61 arrived in Europe on May 23, 1944. The Black Widows were initially based in England,
and their first assignment was to chase night-flying V-1 "buzz bombs". The Black Widows would be
vectored to intercept approaching V-1s by ground control. Since the V-1 was a little faster than the
P-61, the Black Widow had to approach the V-1 from behind and go into a slight dive in order to catch
up with it. The first Black Widow V-1 "kill" took place on July 16, 1944, credited to pilot Herman
Ernst and radar operator Edward Kopsel of the 422nd Night Fighter Squadron. One of the greatest
dangers involved in killing V-1s was the possibility of getting too close to the flying bomb when one
fired at it, running the risk of damage to your own plane if the bomb exploded when hit.

I did goof on one part; the British never got any Black Widows for combat use. They tested a few, but found the Nightfighter Mosquito better for the job.

Hristo, any ideas on how to work these aircraft in to the game, yet not cause a firestome in the process?

------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000


[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 10-18-2000).]