On Sleep and its Deprivation

[LCCajun]

What scientific evidence do you have to back yourself up?  You can force yourself to go to bed at an unnatural hour, (e.g., having midnight watch on a schooner), but left to your own devices, you will rise and retire based on ambient light. If you aren't addicted to electronics, that light should be the sun.

[/b]

Ok so based on what you just said (in bold)yourself no matter if school starts later you will still get up at the same time b/c of the light. Therefore if they were to grant you an extra hour before school you wouldn't use it to sleep b/c the ambient light will wake you up.

[Penguin]

Ah, ah, ah, not so fast.  I said that if left to one's own devices (e.g., not forcibly woken up via alarm clock or parent) one will sleep and wake based on ambient light.  This is true, but school start time cuts sleep short.  This means that there is a disconnection between the students' circadian rythym and school start times.  If start times changed, then students would get more sleep because they'd still fall asleep based on ambient light, but also wake up due to ambient light after good night's rest.

-Penguin

[vorticon]

so black out the windows in your room and stop whining.

and from experience, changing start times helps for about 2 days, then your body adjusts and your back where you started.

[MachFly]

you underestimate the power of human will and the level of adapability humans have. i'm willing to put money down that any adult with military or civil service (firemen, police, emt) experience can get at least 900 out of 1000 teenagers to change their sleep cycles in 7 days. i've personally witnessed 102 people age 18-23 change their sleep patterns within 7 days and constantly adapt to changing conditions for 13 weeks straight, all at the same time.

what they didn't do is sit in front of a television, computer or video game all day long and reflect on why they couldn't do something.

I agree, if you really want it it can be done.

[MachFly]

Going to bed earlier would help.  However, due to the shift in sleep cycles that's just not possible.  It's like asking a thousand (approximately the number of students in my high school) grown men to fall asleep at 19:00 or 20:00.  Sure, a few might pull it off, but almost everyone else will be lying awake until around 21:00.

Your point about Arizona versus California is interesting, but it's well after nightfall at 22:00-23:00.  The only exception could be the summer, but there isn't any school then.

-Penguin

When does daylight saving time start and end?
I'm sure it's well into the school year.

[RTHolmes]

a different (unfashionably non-kidcentric) angle on this:

kids go to school to learn from adult teachers. the day should therefore be set up so that the teachers are at their sharpest.

 

[canacka]

Pushing back the start time will give teens an extra hour?  Your forgetting that it pushes everything else back an hour, unless you think there are actually 25 hrs in a day.

You asked someone else for scientific evidence about where they came up with their findings.  I asked before, will you please show me proof of the findings you speak of? I.E. the study that you said was conducted.  Not an article that talks about it, the actual study.  You can't put the study in an argumentative paper with a bibliography and not put it in there.

Again, I'm not coming down on you.  I already gave my advice to the solution of the problem.  However, I would still like to see this study because it seems that you happened to find out about something that may support you wanting that extra hour and are running with it.

[Melvin]

Ah, ah, ah, not so fast.  I said that if left to one's own devices (e.g., not forcibly woken up via alarm clock or parent) one will sleep and wake based on ambient light.  

This is odd to me as I wake up religiously at 0330, whether the alarm goes off or not.

It could be because I've disciplined myself enough to go to bed at a reasonable hour.

But I do remember being a teen, what with all those hormones going crazy and what-not.    Sleep was something I did during study hall or on the weekends. I guess kids these days just aren't hardcore enough to realize that being moody and worn out is part of life.

Only little girls need beauty sleep. 

[Penguin]

This is odd to me as I wake up religiously at 0330, whether the alarm goes off or not.

It could be because I've disciplined myself enough to go to bed at a reasonable hour.

But I do remember being a teen, what with all those hormones going crazy and what-not.    Sleep was something I did during study hall or on the weekends. I guess kids these days just aren't hardcore enough to realize that being moody and worn out is part of life.

Only little girls need beauty sleep. 

That is an oddly masochistic point of view.  Your point about hormones is dead-on; puberty has done this to us.  On the point of waking up at 3:30, that's either not true, or there is something very different about you.

Pushing back the start time will give teens an extra hour?  Your forgetting that it pushes everything else back an hour, unless you think there are actually 25 hrs in a day.

You asked someone else for scientific evidence about where they came up with their findings.  I asked before, will you please show me proof of the findings you speak of? I.E. the study that you said was conducted.  Not an article that talks about it, the actual study.  You can't put the study in an argumentative paper with a bibliography and not put it in there.

Again, I'm not coming down on you.  I already gave my advice to the solution of the problem.  However, I would still like to see this study because it seems that you happened to find out about something that may support you wanting that extra hour and are running with it.

Here is the citation of the study that indicates that teenagers get more sleep if given the chance:

Danner F; Phillips B. Adolescent sleep, school start times, and teen motor vehicle crashes. J Clin Sleep Med 2008; 4(6): 533-535

If you want to see images of the study, that is another matter because my scanner is broken.

-Penguin

[Jayhawk]

I haven't read all the discussion so far but I can only assume it's full of "I had to do it when I was a kid, you should have to, too."  Changing things like this is very difficult because sometimes there is a fine line between doing what is best for our children and weakening our children.  One of our city high schools recently approved the purchase of iPads for students to use instead of some textbooks.  There were plenty who felt they shouldn't because when they were in school, they had to haul around books.

From an academic standpoint, here's what I see wrong with your paper:

-Extensive use of one source, this NSF website.  You are citing research that they cite in their article, rather than simply citing the article itself.  The NSF has an agenda, although it may be a noble one, it still leads them to choose how to interpret the data.  I though I saw that you maybe had read her paper, well, you should be able to just cite it instead.

-Some of the data from Carskadon is 30+ years old.  That doesn't necessarily mean it is bad data, but you can become less able to generalize data from that long ago.  Some is more recent, but even most of the NSF data is simply citing Carskadon.

-I don't know how they do it now, but I could never, ever, cite Wiki for a paper.  Wiki is a good resource for starting out, and usually link to real data, but shouldn't be used as a source.  For example, you biological clock .png file was done by user YassineMrabet; can you tell me the academic credentials or YassineMrabet and why I should trust him/her?

-The references are suppose to be a way for someone to go and look at the data you looked at.  Sometimes that was just impossible to do; what is up with citation #6, just a quote?

My main point is that although the point has some validity, how can anyone believe it if we can't trust the data?  I don't know what resources your school has, but if you have access to PSYCINFO, you will have access to thousands of real empirical articles on sleep.

P.S. No one is going to profit off your paper...

[Melvin]

On the point of waking up at 3:30, that's either not true, or there is something very different about you.

Actually, I was exaggerating a little.

Sometimes I wake up at 0320. Sometimes I won't wake up until around 0335, at which time I start to freak out until I realize it's Sunday.

There is nothing "very different" about me. I think you'll find that many adults who grow accustomed to a routine have the same type of sleep cycle. (Different hours perhaps, but same nonetheless.)

As far as school children go, I see no reason to change the schedule of an academic institution and the people that it employs just so some whiny children can get a bit more shuteye. After all, with school starting later I feel most kids would simply use the opportunity to stay up later. Whether their parents know it or not.

[Rino]

     Eventually you will have to accept responsibility for your own actions.  Blaming puberty, or sunlight or other
people for your poor performance at something as important as school is weak.  It may come as a shock, but the
world does not revolve around your sense of entitlement.

[Penguin]

@Melvin You're making sweeping generalizations about children's behavior without backup.  The hour piqued my interest, not when you went to bed.  Whiny?  Hardly.  If I can get a higher GPA because I get more sleep, that's not being whiny at all.  That's being smart.

@Jayhawk.  PM or post me the agenda of the NSF, if you please.  Two of my sources are from the Nation Sleep Foundation.  Are there more?  Remember, my bibliography looks wacky only because I haven't finished the paper.
Wikipedia is actually quite reliable now.  Many articles are edit-protected, articles like 'Sleep' also have back-ups and several moderators who check for errors often.

     Eventually you will have to accept responsibility for your own actions.  Blaming puberty, or sunlight or other
people for your poor performance at something as important as school is weak.  It may come as a shock, but the
world does not revolve around your sense of entitlement.

Did I say that I was performing poorly in school?  I'm in four Honors classes and one AP class, which is as high as you can go during Sophmore year.  I'm not blaming it, blame is something you put on an agent that has a choice.  I had no choice in becoming pubescent (that's not to say that I wanted to remain a child).  The problem does not lie in our choices, it lies in our bodies.  The research is there to back it up.

-Penguin

[canacka]

 I had no choice in becoming pubescent

Your blaming this on being pubescent.  Then maybe you have a point because none of us giving you advise never were.    Everything I have said I have said considering how I felt back then and what I did to get over it.  You asked what you can do to improve your paper but everything stated about proving points by showing where you got your info falls on deaf ears.  I do not think you want that, but to only make your paper better to prove your point.  You must, and this is the third time I have asked, provide the study that you said was done that you are backing so much.  If you continue not to do so, you will continue to get the negativity you are receiving from others.  I'm trying to help you out here but it seems that's not what you are looking for.  You have not experienced life as much as others yet who have been through it.  Yet you continue to go with what you want because you want what you want.  Stop talking about melatonin and other such so called studies if you do not provide the actual study!   If that's the case, then what you call an essay is only an argumentative paper meant for a debate.  Either way, you are not providing enough facts to make your point and those on your school board who have been through adolescents will see it the same way.  If you truly want to try this out with us, then give us what we ask for.  We've been there, done that.

[Jayhawk]

@Jayhawk.  PM or post me the agenda of the NSF, if you please.  Two of my sources are from the Nation Sleep Foundation.  Are there more?  Remember, my bibliography looks wacky only because I haven't finished the paper.
Wikipedia is actually quite reliable now.  Many articles are edit-protected, articles like 'Sleep' also have back-ups and several moderators who check for errors often.

Just read the "About Us" page.  Don't think of agenda with such a negative connotation.  They have a mission, a goal they strive for, that means they are not completely unbiased.  Use the data they cite to find these resources, instead of just taking their word for the interpretation.

Wikipedia is still Wikipedia.  Your teacher should not allow you to use it as a source and I guarantee you your college professors will not allow you to use it.

Proper resources and research is vital, so don't expect us to take your research seriously if you don't have a complete bibliography.