Author Topic: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid  (Read 8733 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 03:29:47 AM »
German's are such good fighters they were able to loose 2 world war's in a row. I'm thinking they will claim that record for a good while.

On the other hand it took the whole world four years to beat them in the first world war and five years in the second.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 03:44:35 AM »
As for one-on-many-godliness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOQOzGeCO6c
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 04:23:49 AM »
Unless the 51s make some big time mistakes - and more then a few of them - no way.


The aforementioned  'average joe' makes big time mistakes - that's why he is only average ;)
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Offline PanosGR

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 07:48:38 AM »
Okay from the stand point of someone who is not a pilot or expert on types of planes my first question is who is this guy?  What are his qualifications? And who is this guy Skip who he is talking about?  And what are skips qualifications?



Oh the Skip guy you mean? dont bother. just a below average pilot  :noid

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Offline Hoffman

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 01:14:35 AM »
German's are such good fighters they were able to loose 2 world war's in a row. I'm thinking they will claim that record for a good while.


Check me if I'm wrong here... but aren't the highest scoring aces of all time Germans from World War 2?

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 04:28:41 AM »
Of the 250 top scoring aces of all time 242 are German.

http://www.military-art.com/mall/articles/top_250_aces.php
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 11:38:44 AM »
I'm neither a real pilot or engineer but it would seem to me that a longer, more slender body would lead to less rudder control, not more. Torque is one thing though he speaks of yaw to either direction. Torque rolls one way, with the propellor.

Even the statement about out turning a -51, hmmm. And no one plane can out turn/fight/BnZ, etc five or six planes. A zero can't, a Tempest can't, even the mighty 262 is going to get hammered eventually. The very best stick in our game is not going to beat 5 or 6 average joes in one furball.

I don't know though I am a bit sceptical of his words.

Boo

Well Boo, its not uncommon to defeat a mob if you have the right pilot in the right fighter.

A few years ago, when I was a trainer, Murdr, TC and I were holding a wingman tactics clinic in the TA. We had a pretty good crowd, a mix of noobs and vets looking to learn new skills. After the clinic ended, we decided to see what everyone had learned.

I took six guys and gave them the task to shoot me down (or at least hit me enough to equal that). Two were in P-51Ds and four (all from Saxmans's squad) were in F4Us. I was flying a 109G-2.

We flew out in opposite directions until beyond icon range and reversed to merge right on the deck. Within a few minutes, all six were in the tower. Everyone of them had been shot up, and I forced all of them to auger. Meanwhile, my 109 had not suffered a single ping. They grumbled and complained, so I took a P-38J for the next round. Net result was identical. Murdr watched both fights and commented that they quickly forgot everything they were taught immediately after the merge. Rather than cover one another, they flew in a closely grouped mob, making it easy to keep an eye on all of them. Once I had them slow, I took the fight vertical and was able to pick them off almost at my leisure.

In a fight like this, dealing with a group is not that difficult. Your only concern would be the arrival of higher aircraft while you are maneuvering with the mob. That happened in the second fight, because they would immediately re-up after crashing. Thus, I had to watch for them returning with altitude and E. That didn't help them much.. I would abandon the guy I was working on and climb out to meet the new threat, knowing that the low and slow guys would not be able to climb up and re-enter the fight for a few minutes. Long enough to deal with the returning guy(s). What makes this type of fight more problematic in the MA is that you will have many different types of fighters arriving at various altitudes and E states, making it much harder to track all and stay aware of their relative E states. You could be down in the weeds, flaps out and find one or more guys above you looking for the pick opportunity. The MA is a much more complex and uncontrolled environment.

I may or may not still have some films of these fights, but Murdr can testify to the accuracy of the above.

So, the answer is, within a controlled environment, one guy in a 109K-4 can certainly engage and defeat five or six guys in P-51s, depending upon the skill levels involved and tactics utilized. If they all commit to maneuvering with the 109, the task gets easier.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 11:41:34 AM by Widewing »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2011, 07:03:24 PM »

Check me if I'm wrong here... but aren't the highest scoring aces of all time Germans from World War 2?
A target rich environment coupled with "fly until you die" orders will do that.  Note that "Target rich environment" is a euphemism for "Losing".

If you don't think that some British or American pilots wouldn't have put up similar numbers if the US or UK had been in the same situation you're being silly.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2011, 03:11:10 AM »
Some might have yes, but there is one factor that is diametrically different between the Luftwaffe and the Allied air forces: The Luftwaffe (and Nazi Germany in general) nurtured a culture of personal achievement and glory while the Allied air forces were far more regimental, where personal exploits were often frowned upon. Teamwork and unit cohesion were the key words.

As you say the Germans flew until they died, but it is telling how special individuals the "Experten" were that about half of them survived the war despite the incredible odds. Of the top ten Experten 7 survived.
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Offline Debrody

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 04:12:28 AM »
Predator, thats true, but take a look on their kill logs.
They were in frontline service almost constantly, often for 3-4-5 years. True, they had some couple months breaks, but overally speaking, once they started, they fought til the end of the war, or til they got shot down.
Still, Germany had like 105 pilots with more than 100 air-to-air victories. Thats an amazing amount of experience, even when compared to the top allied fighters.
Sum, if you send 10 Dick Bongs against 10, or say 7 Gallands/Moelderses/Nowotnys/Marseilles/Ralls/Krupinskis/Barkhorns/etc etc, my bet is on the German dudes.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2011, 07:15:29 AM »
Of the 250 top scoring aces of all time 242 are German.


*sniffs bait*

*swims away*

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Offline Widewing

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2011, 06:20:01 PM »
Predator, thats true, but take a look on their kill logs.
They were in frontline service almost constantly, often for 3-4-5 years. True, they had some couple months breaks, but overally speaking, once they started, they fought til the end of the war, or til they got shot down.
Still, Germany had like 105 pilots with more than 100 air-to-air victories. Thats an amazing amount of experience, even when compared to the top allied fighters.
Sum, if you send 10 Dick Bongs against 10, or say 7 Gallands/Moelderses/Nowotnys/Marseilles/Ralls/Krupinskis/Barkhorns/etc etc, my bet is on the German dudes.

Just Bong??? How about McCampbell, Vraciu, Johnson, Gentile, Beckham, Welch, Eagleson, Preddy, McGuire, and several others... I think your Luftwaffe guys (all great aces) would be very hard pressed....  McCampbell and Beckham were as good as anyone on the planet in 1944.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2011, 06:58:03 PM »
Just Bong??? How about McCampbell, Vraciu, Johnson, Gentile, Beckham, Welch, Eagleson, Preddy, McGuire, and several others... I think your Luftwaffe guys (all great aces) would be very hard pressed....  McCampbell and Beckham were as good as anyone on the planet in 1944.
'Sailor' Malan, and ace with less than thirty kills at the time, took on and made hundred kill aces Werner Molders run for France, wounded.

Johnnie Johnson, the top scoring Allied ace in Europe with 39.5 kills, was once asked by a reporter why he didn't shoot down as many as the top German aces.  He told the guy that he hadn't even seen that many German aircraft.

Beckham
Beurling
Clostermann
Eagleson
Finucane
Gentile
Gabreski
Johnson (RAF)
Johnson (USAAF)
Lacey
Malan
McCampbell
McGuire
Preddy
Tuck
Vraciu
Welch

I think all of them match the best the Germans had, and those Germans match them.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2011, 07:45:20 PM »
The very best stick in our game is not going to beat 5 or 6 average joes in one furball.


Boo

You've never seen films of Drex or Lev fly.  I used to have a film of Drex in a Ju88 taking on 6 guys in a 6v1 and he won and another of Lev in a 5v1 and winning.  These weren't just one off affairs either, more like routine sorties for these two. 


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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Very Insightful BF-109 Vid
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 10:57:57 AM »
'Sailor' Malan, and ace with less than thirty kills at the time, took on and made hundred kill aces Werner Molders run for France, wounded.

Molders wasn't a 100 kill ace at the time. Sous lieutenant René Pomier-Layrargues, flying a French Air Force Dewoitine D.520 did shoot down Molders (5 June 1940). He was shot down and killed 30 minutes after the Molders shoot down.

Flight Lieutenant J.L. Webster in a Spitfire of 41 Squadron, not Malan, was the pilot that engaged Molders.