Very Insightful BF-109 Vid

[Charge]

Terry Spencer you say?

"In early September 1944, Spencer led a section of four pilots on an armed reconnaissance over Belgium where they encountered two of the Luftwaffe’s highest-scoring Aces, Hpt. Emil ‘Bully’ Lang, the Commanding Officer of II/JG26 (173 victories) and Lt. Alfred Gross (52 victories), in FW190s over Tirlemont. Although one of his section was killed, the two Aces were shot down, Lang killed and Gross so seriously wounded that he did not return to service before the end of the War."

"On 3 September 1944, Emil Lang was killed in action when his Fw 190 A-8 (Werknummer 171 240—factory number) "Green 1" hit the ground and exploded in a field at Overhespen. He had experienced mechanical trouble on the runway when he and the other aircraft of his flight took off at Melsbroek at 1.20 pm. Ten minutes later, Lang was still having difficulties raising his landing gear. Flying at an altitude of 200 metres (660 ft), his wingman, Unteroffizier Hans-Joachim Borreck, called out P-47 Thunderbolts to their rear. Lang broke upward, to the left. Leutnant Alfred Groß saw Lang's Fw 190 diving in flames, its gear extended, but he lost sight of Lang when his own craft was hit and he had to bail out. Examination of both German and American records suggests that Borreck and Groß misidentified their opponents. The P-51 Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group's 338th Squadron intercepted a flight of three to six Focke Wulfs. Lieutenant Darrell Cramer took a high deflection shot at the Focke Wulf on the left, which fell upside down in a steep dive and crashed hard into the ground; this undoubtedly was Emil Lang." (Caldwell 1998, pp. 343, 344.)

Interesting. Must've been helluva dogfight, P51s and Spit XIIs and what ever, Lang at 200 meters with his gear down.

"Numbers never tell the entire story."

Indeed.

-C+

[PR3D4TOR]

Except RAF records don't support the claims.

ack-ack

They do according to USAF historian, Major Robert Tate.

[coombz]

LOL I get so tired of the LW fans and the highest scores makes them better.

They need something to cling to to make them feel better, no harm in letting them have their pride (however misplaced)

[PR3D4TOR]

Funny how defensive some people get whenever Luftwaffe victories are mentioned. Like it actually matters.

[Guppy35]

Terry Spencer you say?

"In early September 1944, Spencer led a section of four pilots on an armed reconnaissance over Belgium where they encountered two of the Luftwaffe’s highest-scoring Aces, Hpt. Emil ‘Bully’ Lang, the Commanding Officer of II/JG26 (173 victories) and Lt. Alfred Gross (52 victories), in FW190s over Tirlemont. Although one of his section was killed, the two Aces were shot down, Lang killed and Gross so seriously wounded that he did not return to service before the end of the War."

"On 3 September 1944, Emil Lang was killed in action when his Fw 190 A-8 (Werknummer 171 240—factory number) "Green 1" hit the ground and exploded in a field at Overhespen. He had experienced mechanical trouble on the runway when he and the other aircraft of his flight took off at Melsbroek at 1.20 pm. Ten minutes later, Lang was still having difficulties raising his landing gear. Flying at an altitude of 200 metres (660 ft), his wingman, Unteroffizier Hans-Joachim Borreck, called out P-47 Thunderbolts to their rear. Lang broke upward, to the left. Leutnant Alfred Groß saw Lang's Fw 190 diving in flames, its gear extended, but he lost sight of Lang when his own craft was hit and he had to bail out. Examination of both German and American records suggests that Borreck and Groß misidentified their opponents. The P-51 Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group's 338th Squadron intercepted a flight of three to six Focke Wulfs. Lieutenant Darrell Cramer took a high deflection shot at the Focke Wulf on the left, which fell upside down in a steep dive and crashed hard into the ground; this undoubtedly was Emil Lang." (Caldwell 1998, pp. 343, 344.)

Interesting. Must've been helluva dogfight, P51s and Spit XIIs and what ever, Lang at 200 meters with his gear down.

"Numbers never tell the entire story."

Indeed.

-C+

LOL you missed and proved my point at the same time Charge.  Would you agree that circumstances played a part in the death of a 173 kill ace?  Is defining the greatness of a pilot based on his kills an inaccurate measure as the variables contributing to those numbers are many?  I have no problem conceding that the highest scoring fighter aces of WW2 were from the Luftwaffe.  I don't believe that suggests they had the best pilots.  I believe that all the participants had great pilots who did some amazing things.

Looking through my copy of "Blonde Knight of Germany" is see that it's suggested that Hartmann flew up to 1400 sorties + with combat being a part of 850 of those flights.  It appears he started with his first operational unit in October 42 and flew until the end of the war in May 45.

I have the logbook of a Canadian Spitfire pilot.  He joined his first squadron in December 1941 and was sent home after his second tour in August 44.  He flew 289 operational sorties that included 30 scrambles, 90 sweeps and recces, 139 patrols, and 30 rhubarbs.  He never fired his guns at a German aircraft outside of a few V-1s.

How would you compare their experience and abilities as pilots?

[kilo2]

LOL you missed and proved my point at the same time Charge.  Would you agree that circumstances played a part in the death of a 173 kill ace?  Is defining the greatness of a pilot based on his kills an inaccurate measure as the variables contributing to those numbers are many?  I have no problem conceding that the highest scoring fighter aces of WW2 were from the Luftwaffe.  I don't believe that suggests they had the best pilots.  I believe that all the participants had great pilots who did some amazing things.

Looking through my copy of "Blonde Knight of Germany" is see that it's suggested that Hartmann flew up to 1400 sorties + with combat being a part of 850 of those flights.  It appears he started with his first operational unit in October 42 and flew until the end of the war in May 45.

I have the logbook of a Canadian Spitfire pilot.  He joined his first squadron in December 1941 and was sent home after his second tour in August 44.  He flew 289 operational sorties that included 30 scrambles, 90 sweeps and recces, 139 patrols, and 30 rhubarbs.  He never fired his guns at a German aircraft outside of a few V-1s.

How would you compare their experience and abilities as pilots?

You don't get as much kills and survive as many combat sorties that many of those LW pilots did without being a very good pilot.

While the Canadian served his country well there is no comparison. Really though we will never know.

From Rall 1 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFdRrWBW2w&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL89B21F966C944BDE

[Guppy35]

You don't get as much kills and survive as many combat sorties that many of those LW pilots did without being a very good pilot.

While the Canadian served his country well there is no comparison. Really though we will never know.

From Rall 1 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFdRrWBW2w&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL89B21F966C944BDE

And that's the key.  We'll never know.  What we can agree on is that the countries that provided combat pilots in WW2 produced some very good pilots.

Rall said it well. Thanks for that link

[PR3D4TOR]

Looking through my copy of "Blonde Knight of Germany" is see that it's suggested that Hartmann flew up to 1400 sorties + with combat being a part of 850 of those flights.  It appears he started with his first operational unit in October 42 and flew until the end of the war in May 45.

I have the logbook of a Canadian Spitfire pilot.  He joined his first squadron in December 1941 and was sent home after his second tour in August 44.  He flew 289 operational sorties that included 30 scrambles, 90 sweeps and recces, 139 patrols, and 30 rhubarbs.  He never fired his guns at a German aircraft outside of a few V-1s.

How would you compare their experience and abilities as pilots?

As pilots or fighter pilots? I would stake my bet on the man who has actually fired a shot at an enemy plane, but we can never know for sure. Just because a 100+ ace gets shot down by a noob does not mean that the noob is the better fighter pilot. Nor can we assume the vice versa. All it takes is one mistake, one moment of inattention, and you're dead. Even if you don't make a mistake you can still get killed. There are literally hundreds of important variables that come to play in deciding the outcome of an aerial battle. Many aces were even killed in simple accidents like Marseille who jumped to his death from his 109 when it developed engine problems.

Does 100+ kills mean that a pilot is better than any other pilot? Of course not. However, 100+ kills is a damn good indication that the pilot is very good indeed. A pilot with no victories is much more of an unknown, but may very well turn out to be better.

[Charge]

I didn't really miss anything Guppy. I'm really in no illusion that some country had inherently better pilots than others. The fact remains that Germany did not really have a luxury to rotate pilots and the overwhelming odds they faced in the end ensured that many of German aces were killed in circumstances where a daily survival would be a miracle itself. But of course their vast experience was of huge help if they had any luck at all with them, some did and managed to survive. So in the end the German aces may indeed have had more "experience" than pilots of any other nationality which was reflected by their kill numbers but only because they had served so long and in such conditions.

I have sometimes thought of M. von Richthofen and the speculations how he broke all his own rules in following an enemy to low alt and got killed in the process. I have read that he was very tired of war and I have also read that some of ww2 era German aces may have suffered same kind of extreme fatique which could have affected their judgement and ultimately lead to their demise. And that goes also for Japanese pilots, which makes me think that everything they lost and all the effort they had made to win the war were ultimately in vain and that had to have a huge effect on their mindset, as well making it easier to understand why some of them even participated in kamikaze attacks as a last resort (rather than being just fanatics).

The allied pilots were also driven into exhaustion but I think that it was not ultimately the same level as that of German or Japanese due to possibility of rotation and that they knew they were winning and all the sacrifices they had experienced were not in vain after all. You could also call it "hope".

So if I set aside the fact what kind of regimes the axis pilots fought for and just think of them as soldiers doing their duty I have to feel great sympathy for them due to extreme conditions they had to experience, not necessarily what they achieved in military sense as "kills".

Having read his biography I think Günther Lützov is a very interesting person who in personal life started to experience the effects of mental exhaustion but it is unclear if it had anything to do with his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_L%C3%BCtzow

-C+

[Guppy35]

Interesting that you mentioned Von Richtofen, Charge.  One of the things I went and looked at was the top aces of WW1 and the top 3 were a German, a Frenchman and a Canadian, all within less then 10 kills of each other. with another German and an Englishman topping out the first 5. 

If there is a consistent theme in reading the stories of the WW1 aces of all sides, it's that they all were flown beyond the point of exhaustion as the folks leading them had no idea of the conditions in which they fought.  You look at any of the early pictures vs late of aces from all sides and the differences are scary in how physically and emotionally beaten down they look.

As you say, the Axis pilots in WW2 suffered much the same fate, while the Allied pilots benefited from the rotation policy and larger training programs and pools of well trained pilots.

[PR3D4TOR]

Maybe this thread should have been called "Very Inciteful BF-109 Vid"...

[Slade]

Maybe this thread should have been called "Very Inciteful BF-109 Vid"...

Getting back to point, I like that our 109's yaw is modeled well.  There seems to be evidence that the real world yaw was even better.  Does anyone have any evidence of this besides the video I presented (below)?  If it is true I'd like to see HTC change the 109 yaw to match the real-world 109.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b69pO7538sE

Somewhat related, I notice that the yaw in a Typhie is very good too.  Do you guys find that true also?

Thanks for your feedback.  

[PR3D4TOR]

Yaw authority is a difficult metric to measure. I doubt it was ever done.

[mtnman]

Modern 109 pilot talks about the 109's yaw.  It shows just how well AH got this bird right.  Many folks in the history shows dont factor this into their Spit vs. 109 comparisons I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b69pO7538sE

BTW, it took me a few attempts to get the right URL of THIS the vid. Sorry.

I don't see this video showing much of anything, least of all how any aspect (yaw included) of the flight model in AH matches or varies from reality.

I'm not trying to be snide, but it looks to me like the pilot is just trying to impress the starry-eyed worshiper he's talking to.  I'd wager the pilot is really a fan of his 109, and is going to make it sound as impressive as he feels it is.  I've been known to do the same when it comes to my flintlock rifle.

What he describes when it comes to yaw could be said true for many planes, and could even be explained by factors such as speed differences rather than yaw effectiveness of one plane compared to another.

[Charge]

Ok, so what it is in P-51 that would make it difficult to yaw? I recall that the manual instructs no to yaw the plane in high speed but then again there's this story about Richard Candelaria...

To me it seems that the fuselage due to its vertical flatness and area has a positive effect on stability on yaw axis -or is the problem that in high speed the effect is so strong that you risk overstressing the rudder installation?
If that is a problem in high speed so why would it be a problem also in slower speeds in dogfight?

I recall that Finnish pilots said that 109G2 felt like it flew on rails and that would indicate a good stability on yaw axis although all G models still had the problem that you had to apply rudder all the time to get the plane fly straight at speed. It could also be that the speed alone gave that impression to pilots accustomed to much slower aircraft.



BTW, here is the same video which has been posted on this forum numerous times. Skip Holm talks himself from 3:20 onwards but not about stability issues. The video is made by a WW2OL player and it merely tries to get confirmation to shortcomings of the CRS product. I don't know who the other guy is (who is interviewed on both videos) and what is his actual experience but obviously he has flown these planes, but I get the feeling that he is not as experienced as Skip as a fighter pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

-C+