Author Topic: fix the strat game  (Read 2541 times)

Offline Dover

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2012, 05:08:46 PM »
The B-29 is a plane without a mission anyway as long as the main strats are broken. That's a main reason we don't see that many of them. For every target that really makes a difference in this game, there are other bombers with a better fitting mission profile.
It doesn't get better when we lower B-29 cost too much so that it just becomes an Ultra-Lanc. But it can get better when we give this long range, high altitude bomber a valuable target worth all that flight time.

ding ding ding you won great way of putting it

Offline bustr

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2012, 09:03:42 PM »
If you haven't been around for about 10 years you would have seen that HTC adding something like the B29 with it's 10x force multiplyer over other heavy bombers is HTC feeling out in baby steps upping the anti on the game. If the next release HTC decides to turn the corner towards choke point punitive strats and set loose the strategic bombing war on the 3 countries, then as always I'll adapt like I have for a decade.

Until then HTC has been pretty good about not killing what makes the 3 sides work 24x7 by taking their time to test out new directions.

The equal ability to wage war at all times.

I do beleive a change is about time. I beleive HTC is the only entity qualified to come up with it and not violate rule #1.

Yo should talk to Fester. At least he is working with maps to make Lemonaid Spiced with his personal brand of Vodka to work within the limits imposed by HTC. His maps are some of the best in the game becasue he is taking the bull by the horns rather than shouting at mountains in these forums.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2012, 12:38:30 AM »
The B-29 is a plane without a mission anyway as long as the main strats are broken. That's a main reason we don't see that many of them. For every target that really makes a difference in this game, there are other bombers with a better fitting mission profile.
It doesn't get better when we lower B-29 cost too much so that it just becomes an Ultra-Lanc. But it can get better when we give this long range, high altitude bomber a valuable target worth all that flight time.

everybody knew this when they voted for it to be included.  perk planes are not meant to give your perks.  the other planes are meant to get your perks so you can fly the perk planes.  it isnt the lack of targets or not enough points that make people not fly bombers.  it's the fact that it's boring for most players who really join to fly fighters.  that is the problem.

not many players are willing to take a 1 or 2 hour long trip no matter how many points/perks/cents off the monthly dues you give them.  this is the part where most of you guys who want the strats "fixed" fail to realize.  there are lots of people who will bomb, I do but mostly to sink cv's.  but only for short trips of 25 to 20 min in duration.

the giving more points for hitting the strats will only help those who already love to pad their score by dropping one bomb in every town for hours on end. but it wont be an incentive to have more people fly long range missions.

that's what i think anyway.  and if you ask me about facts, then may I remind you about when a cv is near a base, not many people will bother to bring a set of buffs for the 20 min ride and the easy 15 to 20 perks that you will earn for sinking it.  they would rather up a heavy jug or fighter and just furball it to death.  except for the noobs who will bring lancs one after the other noe from the base that is under attack and die more times than you can count.

semp
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Offline Lusche

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2012, 04:21:20 AM »
everybody knew this when they voted for it to be included. 

Not everybody did thinkabout it or was aware of it, as could be seen by the huge number of "B-29 will ruin the game" and "fields will stay constantly closed" prophecies of doom.

perk planes are not meant to give your perks.  the other planes are meant to get your perks so you can fly the perk planes.  it isnt the lack of targets or not enough points that make people not fly bombers.  it's the fact that it's boring for most players who really join to fly fighters.  that is the problem.

I don't think that's a problem. None of us - or at least not me ;) - is trying to change the game in a way that everybody should end up flying boring bomber missions.

not many players are willing to take a 1 or 2 hour long trip no matter how many points/perks/cents off the monthly dues you give them.  this is the part where most of you guys who want the strats "fixed" fail to realize.  there are lots of people who will bomb, I do but mostly to sink cv's.  but only for short trips of 25 to 20 min in duration.
the giving more points for hitting the strats will only help those who already love to pad their score by dropping one bomb in every town for hours on end. but it wont be an incentive to have more people fly long range missions.

Oh, I think it will be an incentive, because there are a lot of players that stopped to fly long range missions just because they are not 'worth' it, in game impact as well in score.
What 'most of us' are looking for is not a complete game changer, we are not trying to make everyone flying hour long bomber missions. But I wan't to increase variety for those that do. And even the "20 minute players", which are indeed the majority,  may try for something different every once in a while.


And if it's just us "town center killers" that would now have to go after the strats, a lot would be won. If the most distant, heavily defended and obvious target gives has the biggest 'reward', it just sounds like a better balanced game to me. If you want plenty points, you have to fight for it.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2012, 04:36:48 AM »
then good luck, wish you the best  :salute.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Torquila

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2012, 04:37:43 AM »
Luche, your overthinking this i'd say. This is not just a matter of game design, its a matter of community and culture as well.

If people lack an adequate fighting chance to complete a mission due to the enviroment of buff killing planes they simply wont fly them because like its been said, there is no reward for the risk.

People need to feel they have a chance, even if its a slim one; and I know making the b29 more available will provide something in that direction.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 04:39:45 AM by Torquila »

Offline Tilt

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2012, 08:17:17 AM »
I know there are lots of examples of ac being used in a manner which is not historically representative.............. however that is not an arguement for encouraging it further.............

The B29 is/was uber because it can/could carry a lot of ord very high and very far.......... and actually thats just how its being used (albeit, generally, against tactical town targets then strategic targets) I think lowering the perk price (substantially) would encourage its use ingame in a more non historical manner.

Whilst some modification to perk may be possible I would not like to see it (B29's)  so cheap as to have common use as a medium altitude bomber in the MA in place of the B17, B24 or Lanc.
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Offline Hap

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2012, 09:47:07 AM »
If people lack an adequate fighting chance to complete a mission due to the environment of buff killing planes they simply wont fly them because like its been said, there is no reward for the risk.

As it is now, when strats are several sectors away from hq, the chances of landing successfully are high compared to having to fend off Me163's where the chances are slim.

I'm going to take a slight risk and speak for the old farts who have been around for a decade and who enjoy long bomber runs.  Now obviously, what I say will not be agreed upon by all, but at least on the Bishop side, I've flown with these guys for years, and have come to know their likes and dislikes to some degree.  I know of no one who has said, "Gosh, I wish B29's were cheap enough so we could fly them at 15K (pick your altitude if you like), and not worry about perk bank running dry when we lose them."  So making them cheap is not a solution that would improve the game.  If anything, it would make it worse, more gamey, arcade-like, and weird.

As to town center milking, well let's ditch that in favor of strat milking.  I think that's the jist (not as an alternative to town centers per se) of these threads.  And since B29 will continue to cost roughly 300 perks for a formation (yes, yes, depending on eny up or down), we're not going to see them much at cloud layer over strats should strat perk earning potential be greatly increased.  What would transpire, I suppose, would be a greater frequency of high alt buff runs into the strat complexes that are out of 163 range.  And also, an increase in #'s of those participating.  In no way am I imagining the same large numbers that your average NOE let's club an airfield to death garners.  8 buff formations will fill a sector with dar.  It's that dar moving slowly that get's the other side's attention, and creates a nice semi-historical fight.  Even without 29's, whenever we see a rearward dar pop up, we know what's up: a big buff run.  We don't know the target right off the bat.  We don't know their terminal altitude or planes.  But we know something's afoot, and it's in the 8+ pilot/player range.

Again, attempting to speak for guys like me the old buffers, I've never heard it bandied about that the game would be better if folks played like us.  Never once.  My best friends in the game are all over 40 years old and most over 50.  It would be ludicrous to expect what trips our trigger to fire the imagination of twenty year olds and kids.

As things stand in the game right now, those sort of missions are entirely possible even without B29's.  I don't fly them regularly because they aren't posted often.  The last one I participated in was about 2 weeks ago.  Certainly, during the peak hours, on country channel, someone will voice their desire to hit strats or hq.  In other words, a deep run.  And, not infrequently, that mission gets a few participants, let's say less that 5.  And by the time they arrive, they are down to 3 players because I'm supposing the ones that quit found it tedious.  Now the names associated with those missions aren't one's I know well.  So, I figure they are newer guys excited by the notion of hitting our enemies industrial complexes.  Well, it does sound good, right?  And the attrition rate of those runs sounds just about right to me.  It's more fun to do other stuff for them than a 45 min+ buff run.

As to the older set of players who buff, 45 min+ is not an attention span challenge, nor do we regard it as tedious or boring.  However, with the results being so sparse, I cannot justify it from a in-game strategic point of view or from a personal, "Yup, that run earned all of us 50 perks" point of view."  It's a time to visit, play, and have fun.

Now, if the point earning were shifted, and participants who landed did in fact earn 50 to 100 buff perks each due to that text buffer filling up big time, that would pull more of us into the air on those sort of runs more frequently.

I really don't see a down side at all.  I don't think teenagers to that 30 year old still-a-teen-at-heart crowd could care less what we old ducks do.  Unless, it's to shoot us down since we're milking their strats.  And amongst the Bishops, I can think of two squads who'd likely be amenable to such a change, and I can think of, oh . . . somewhere around 10 guys to whom a strat milking high reward set up would appeal to naturally given our ages, personalities, and temperaments.  Now . . . what I'm not adding in is the excitement factor that sort of "pulls along" other players into such a mix.  Get some "name" guys upping such a run (and I'm most definitely NOT one of those name guys) then the #'s can balloon to 10 to 20 guys in a run.  Sounds like fun to me.

Now I'll shut up after this.  What was it, a month or two after the 29's were introduced, someone from Rooks or Knights but up a HUGE B29 run into the Bish strats.  Very successfully I might add.  Was way fun for the Bish who were unable to turn them back.  We saw the dar, we tracked it, it's all we were talking about.  Guys, lots, started upping, and it was a melee to say the least. 

I do understand the arguments against making strats uber rewarding for buff strikes.  As I see them they follow: It's dumb and boring.  Most players won't participate.  You know, I think that covers the arguments opposing such a change.  No buff pilots I know want "most players" to fly in such a run.  Only need 8 to 15 to put up 24 to 45 planes.  And there are during peak times 8 to 15 guys give or take who fancy such runs fun.

Now there might be coding problems that make such a change impossible.  Or HTC might know that it would be a bad business move.  Well, those would be the two deal killers in my book.  Those are the only ones I see.

Offline Dover

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2012, 10:23:13 AM »

Again, attempting to speak for guys like me the old buffers, I've never heard it bandied about that the game would be better if folks played like us.  Never once.  My best friends in the game are all over 40 years old and most over 50.  It would be ludicrous to expect what trips our trigger to fire the imagination of twenty year olds and kids.

As to the older set of players who buff, 45 min+ is not an attention span challenge, nor do we regard it as tedious or boring.  However, with the results being so sparse, I cannot justify it from a in-game strategic point of view or from a personal, "Yup, that run earned all of us 50 perks" point of view."  It's a time to visit, play, and have fun.

I really don't see a down side at all.  I don't think teenagers to that 30 year old still-a-teen-at-heart crowd could care less what we old ducks do.  Unless, it's to shoot us down since we're milking their strats.  And amongst the Bishops, I can think of two squads who'd likely be amenable to such a change, and I can think of, oh . . . somewhere around 10 guys to whom a strat milking high reward set up would appeal to naturally given our ages, personalities, and temperaments.  Now . . . what I'm not adding in is the excitement factor that sort of "pulls along" other players into such a mix.  Get some "name" guys upping such a run (and I'm most definitely NOT one of those name guys) then the #'s can balloon to 10 to 20 guys in a run.  Sounds like fun to me.


Hap I totaly agree with you

just 2 small things
i just turned 30 and i know some other guys my age and a bit younger who do are getting into the bombing and are already into it
(having my tv on and watching things while i do my hour long climb helps too)

i know me and you bump heads a bit on the bish side sometimes but we have the same goal in mind in the end and i have to say man you are one of the "names" in my book happily jump your missions any time when i can

Offline Hap

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2012, 10:24:22 AM »
 :aok

Offline bustr

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2012, 02:55:18 PM »
The one part of the game that has cunfused me is strategic bombing versus localised effect bombing to aid the movement along a front. The localised effect bomber pilots are past being good at dictating the outcome of localised combat whether requested or not.

Now magnify that to a country level and you can understand why no strategic choke points. HTC was shrewd in including manned 88 with timed fuzes rather than the british 3lb(not sure Im corrrect on type) with proximity fuses. Furballers would pass up a furball just to wipe bombers from the skys over their airfield like 5in from CV. Localised bombers are like a COP with a flashlight when she just said yes in the back seat.

The giant Factory strat is an eventual high value target if the effort is made. But, it protects itself essentialy by it's size, location and overall individual man efforts to destroy by 100%. Then the reward and or result to the game is a tad bit vauge for the average player and the time he wants to expend.

I understand during peak play time the easy access to and location of 163 adds considerably to the job and is more often rewarding to the 163 pilot than the bomber pilot or group of pilots. But, then comes the after peak hours with few players on the map and milk run time. An easy strategic global target with a major influence to a country then is similar to locking your pet couger up for the night in a freinds butcher shop. It's obvious you only care about your couger no matter the damage in the morning when your friend opens his shop. His dissipointed customers will spend their meat money at a competitor regardless of the quality.

Enter HTC's problem from a playability point of view in creating a change for strategic bombers without customers voting with their feet.

The real outcomes and rewards to bombing the giant factory strat don't seem to match the man effort required to complete the herculean job. Everything else in the game rewards better for the man effort when you succeed.

I don't know. Change would be called for in this situation. Split the Factory into 3 parts across the country then for destroying each one Jessica Simpson gives you a big wet one on the cheek....Hap comes to your house in a TuTu and does the Hippo dance from Fantasia. Fugitive sends you signed self portraits.

I beleive a change should happen. But, only HTC knows what won't kill the golden goose on the first day.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2012, 08:16:05 PM »
...

Very well said and exactly the reasons I stopped flying buffs.  Time aloft was never an issue.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2012, 09:37:19 PM »
Hap I totaly agree with you

just 2 small things
i just turned 30 and i know some other guys my age and a bit younger who do are getting into the bombing and are already into it
(having my tv on and watching things while i do my hour long climb helps too)

i know me and you bump heads a bit on the bish side sometimes but we have the same goal in mind in the end and i have to say man you are one of the "names" in my book happily jump your missions any time when i can

I taught Hap how to run mission back in the day when he was in the Mafia with me  :devil

The issue really isn't with the game. All of the mechanics are there. you can bomb factories and have it hurt, you can cause all kinds of trouble if you run the missions right and hit things in the right order ( tho it does seem there is an issue with the repair times right now). The problem isn't with the game, it's with the people.

I AM NOT PICKING ON THE vGUYS!! <-- notice the caps, I really mean it !!! The vGuys have a reputation of rolling base after base. It seems to me that you might be getting bored with doing that, the same mission time and time again. Which is natural. So now your looking to expand. The plan is to hit depots and HQ to cripple/hurt/slow down the enemies offensive, take try and take away their ability to "make war". It's a good plan, bold, but now you are finding out that with out a lot of people to work together on it it is a lot of work and very hard to do. Not enough people join the missions to get it done. Too many people rolling base while the enemy does the same. Too many people furballing.

So here you are asking that things get changed to make it easier to accomplish your mission, with out the extra help you have such a hard time getting. It's just how people are playing these days. They are looking for that quick win (HOs, NOE base grabs, horde base attacks), what ever gives them that quick win. It takes too long to hit HQ, and when you do it right it takes too long to see the benefits. Nobody is thinking ahead, they are all in the now.

I'd like to see the issue Fester and Lusche found with the unit repairing themselves in 45 minutes no matter how things are hit. I'd also like to see HTC add something different, just so it IS different. I don't want to see them change things so that what was meant for 10-15 guys to do in a mission can be done by 4 or 5

Offline Dover

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2012, 09:59:43 PM »
not asking for them to change to get easier the real thing is the way we are all asking for it to be was the way it was

we are saying it should have never changed from 7 or 10 years ago or whenever it was they changed it exactly i can't remember

the point is they had it done a way that took alot of effort had a good pay off and wasn't easy for one person to do

why did they change that


Offline The Fugitive

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Re: fix the strat game
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2012, 09:19:17 AM »
I'm not sure why they changed it. My "guess" is that they thought that with all the bombers we had, grouping the depots together would create large player groups working together to bomb them. Large bomber groups would have escorts, and defenders would see them coming from a long way off so they could up to defend making a "prime" area of combat. It never really materialized. Too many "gamers" as apposed to "simmers". Gamers want stuff now, want to see instant results.

Ideally I'd love to see the main arenas have the same as a scenario. The scenarios have a mission plan, defenders have their plans hoping to choose right and intercept the in coming attack. Imagine that happening in the mains with 4 or 5 scenarios running at once. That's how it was with fights happening all over the map as small groups/squads fought to take or defend all over the place. Today, too many feel they can't do it in a small group and so they join the bigger ones making them bigger. Before you know it there is one big group rolling bases with almost no little groups left.  What do you think would happen if you got the large group together after their most recent base capture and launched the next mission to the Strats in stead of another base? My guess is the mission would fall apart and unless someone stepped up by saying "lets take such and such a base" the group would fall apart as well. Its the nature of the beast.... for now.