150 octane fuel

[Guppy35]

This one is from the Fall of 44 and is a 479th FG P51D.  Still marked 100/130.

The pilot of this bird was KIA when his engine quit and he was forced to bail out.  He had his engine set to allow for extra boost and the general consensus is the wear on his engine cost him.

[bustr]

Guppy,

Aircraft went down for many other non combat reasons. I think the numbers of lost due to malfunctions and pilot error were higher than due to combat. It was a war, you went with what gave your people an edge along with the issues that happens with all new technology. 150 octane didn't kill everyone who burned it in their fighter, and the AAf And RAF worked out the issues just like the issues were worked out with the Typhoon that kept killing test pilots and combat pilots from 42. Hitech gives us perfict aircraft unlike many of the 109's and FW that were delivered at the end.

This is a "kiddy game" in 2012 that offers simulations of aircraft from WW2 in supposidly a faithful rendition of their types and performance. This is not WW2 1940's and nobody has ever died in this game from a malfunctioning anything while playing it. We are 70 years removed from what you just posted whizzing at each other in a kiddy cartoon. Leave the dead alone. It does them no honor to be used as a guilt ploy while arguing over a kiddy cartoon featuring cartoon ariplanes.

What ploy next? You going to start arguing for Saxon reparations from the american decendants of William I and use the Bayeux Tapestry to show them how horribly William treated the Saxons at Hastings? Poor Harold Godwinson ate it on Senlac Hill.  Along with excerps from the Doomsday Book to prove he fleeched England 927 years ago? I bet a few Godwins want some payback. Heck, dig up some Irish americans who still remember Cromwell and the Siege of Drogheda for some really colorful guilt triping.

Peopel die in wars for many reasons that have absolutly nothing to do with this 2012 cartoon game where no one dies. And the aircraft in question are only partialy faitfuly being rendered per the documents from the ww2 aircraft performance site. Some of our rides done been Phar Lap't.

Phar Lap was a 1920's australian race horse who was so strong that he was handicapped with 138lb's of lead to give other horses a fighting chance to race him in australia. Even outside of australia he was forced to wear 129lbs of lead at the  Agua Caliente Handicap in mexico which he still set a track record. He was too fast I guess like our resident Phar Laps. To this day some still think the Mafia caused his death by poisoning him becasue they had too much to loose. He was just too fast and they didn't like it.

[MiloMorai]

the Typhoon that kept killing test pilots and combat pilots from 42.

Are you referring to the tail failures?

[Guppy35]

Guppy,

Aircraft went down for many other non combat reasons. I think the numbers of lost due to malfunctions and pilot error were higher than due to combat. It was a war, you went with what gave your people an edge along with the issues that happens with all new technology. 150 octane didn't kill everyone who burned it in their fighter, and the AAf And RAF worked out the issues just like the issues were worked out with the Typhoon that kept killing test pilots and combat pilots from 42. Hitech gives us perfict aircraft unlike many of the 109's and FW that were delivered at the end.

This is a "kiddy game" in 2012 that offers simulations of aircraft from WW2 in supposidly a faithful rendition of their types and performance. This is not WW2 1940's and nobody has ever died in this game from a malfunctioning anything while playing it. We are 70 years removed from what you just posted whizzing at each other in a kiddy cartoon. Leave the dead alone. It does them no honor to be used as a guilt ploy while arguing over a kiddy cartoon featuring cartoon ariplanes.

What ploy next? You going to start arguing for Saxon reparations from the american decendants of William I and use the Bayeux Tapestry to show them how horribly William treated the Saxons at Hastings? Poor Harold Godwinson ate it on Senlac Hill.  Along with excerps from the Doomsday Book to prove he fleeched England 927 years ago? I bet a few Godwins want some payback. Heck, dig up some Irish americans who still remember Cromwell and the Siege of Drogheda for some really colorful guilt triping.

Peopel die in wars for many reasons that have absolutly nothing to do with this 2012 cartoon game where no one dies. And the aircraft in question are only partialy faitfuly being rendered per the documents from the ww2 aircraft performance site. Some of our rides done been Phar Lap't.

Phar Lap was a 1920's australian race horse who was so strong that he was handicapped with 138lb's of lead to give other horses a fighting chance to race him in australia. Even outside of australia he was forced to wear 129lbs of lead at the  Agua Caliente Handicap in mexico which he still set a track record. He was too fast I guess like our resident Phar Laps. To this day some still think the Mafia caused his death by poisoning him becasue they had too much to loose. He was just too fast and they didn't like it.

What part about it's not up to me and I don't care either way Isn't setting in buster?  You seem intent on arguing with me about this.  Fox asked if all 51Ds used the fuel.  I posted pics of how you would know based on the aircraft data block.  Adding the story on the one bird from the 479th was trivia done because that photo complete shows the pilot and is from my photo collection.  It was not meant to support on position or the other.  So please save me the wall of text and get over your idea that I am leading the charge against 150 octane fuel other then yo make sure that the same selective fact picking that went on the last five times the discussion happened, doesn't happen again.

[Fox]

Guppy, thanks for the info.

[alpini13]

if you add 150 octane...and pay with perks....you would have to add the methanol/water injection to german planes and the nitrous oxide option to german planes...perked ofcourse

[Karnak]

if you add 150 octane...and pay with perks....you would have to add the methanol/water injection to german planes and the nitrous oxide option to german planes...perked ofcourse

They already have it.

[bangsbox]

if you add 150 octane...and pay with perks....you would have to add the methanol/water injection to german planes and the nitrous oxide option to german planes...perked ofcourse

wep 190:) water

[Guppy35]

Came across this comment from a Mustang pilot while looking for something completely different regarding the 364th FG Mustangs.  I'd suggest this guys memory was fairly good at the time as he was being interviewed by the head of the National Air & Space museum.  He's been a two tour combat pilot in WW2, retired as a 4 Star general, leading the Minuteman Rocket program as one of his assignments, directing the NASA lunar landing program and also head of NSA at one point.

Posted purely for the insight, not to get anyone worked up.  I just thought it interesting.  General Samuel Phillips  His group started to transition to 51s at the end of July 1944:

"Fairly quickly after the appearance of the ME-262, our Air Force's counter was a fuel additive. The fuel that we'd been using was 100 octane, and I remember the maximum power setting, military power in the P-51 was 3000 RPM and 65 inches of manifold pressure. I've forgotten exactly what it gave but that's somewhere in the ballpark I guess of 2000 horsepower on that engine. At full military power the P-51--I'd have to go back and check to get numbers--but at low altitude the air speed had to have been somewhere getting up around 300 miles an hour, but it was still well short of what the ME-262 could do. So with the fuel additive that was provided at our bases fairly quickly, we could go up to 85 inches of manifold pressure, and that increased the horsepower output of the engine by a lot. One of the penalties was that the engine had to be changed after each mission, because it would virtually burn up the engine to run it very long at those high powers. But the speed difference was not so great. The P-51 chasing an ME-262 couldn't catch it. In other words it was short of the 262 speed. But there was more than one ME-262 that were shot down by P-51s in that period. I don't know the statistics, but I guess I was impressed in retrospect with the speed with which fuel additives were provided, so the knowledge of how to do that had to be there. And with the performance increase that that provided. But it was still well short of the jet engine"

[kvuo75]

1st Lt. James F. Hinchey, 14 November 1944, 353rd FG “For fifteen minutes at 74” hg and indicating 600 mph…”  

2nd Lt. Thomas R. Drybrough, 27 November 1944, 353rd FG "I had been pulling over 70" H.G. and was indicating about 425 MPH at approximately 14,000 feet."
  

yep, sounds about right.   

[Tank-Ace]

OK, just to be clear, is there ANYONE here who actually thinks that modeling the use of 150 octane fuel AS STANDARD (because its been stated that its impossible to change the flight model from the hanger) is a good idea?



I mean basically, about 1/2 of the allied aircraft would be about perk worthy. P-51 would have to be perked, Mossie would need to be perked and perked higher, several spitfires would probably have to be perked, some P-47's would need to be perked, typhoon/temp might need a perk/perk increase.


In addition to that, you destroy ANY AND ALL chance of having a fun, competative, and fair special event. Allies will win automatically. Japanese aircraft will be portrayed as even less competative than they were historically.


Reasons to add
"I wanna be in an uber plane so I can beat people who are better than me"
"I want my spit to have no disadvantage"
Its representative of the ETO for post-D-day situations

Reasons not to add
It will require a major overhaul of the perk points of all exisiting perk airframes
Many LW allied aircraft would need to be perked
It will be unrepresentative of pre-D-day situation
It will be unrepresentative of the PTO and CBI
It will destroy any and all special events
It will likely shoot the MA's in the face, as far as fun-factor is concerned

[Karnak]

I mean basically, about 1/2 of the allied aircraft would be about perk worthy.

Bullhocky.

P-51 would have to be perked

True.

Mossie would need to be perked and perked higher

Maybe, maybe not.  For the "Perked higher" comment I take it you are referring to the Mk XVI, but the Mk XVI never used 150 octane.

several spitfires would probably have to be perked

Only the Mk XVI would need to be perked.  None of the others used 150 octane other than the already perked Mk XIV.

some P-47's would need to be perked

Only the P-47M used 150 octane, and yes it'd be a perk.

typhoon/temp might need a perk/perk increase.

Typhoons didn't use 150 octane.  Tempest might need an increase in price.

That said, the only aircraft I personally want to see 150 octane modeled on is the Spitfire Mk XIV as it is already perked and is woefully underused due to being out performed by a number of free fighters.  Remodeling it with 150 octane might actually make it worthy of its 8 perk price.

[Tank-Ace]

Alright, thanks for the info.


But I still stand by what I said: its a bad idea to make 150 octane fuel the norm for fighters that used it.




And I would agree with the Spit XIV, depending on the preformance increases we'd be talking about here. I mean even increasing its deck speed to, say, 368ish, and its climb up to over 5000 won't make it perk worthy if its only slightly faster at altitude.

[Guppy35]

OK, just to be clear, is there ANYONE here who actually thinks that modeling the use of 150 octane fuel AS STANDARD (because its been stated that its impossible to change the flight model from the hanger) is a good idea?



I mean basically, about 1/2 of the allied aircraft would be about perk worthy. P-51 would have to be perked, Mossie would need to be perked and perked higher, several spitfires would probably have to be perked, some P-47's would need to be perked, typhoon/temp might need a perk/perk increase.


In addition to that, you destroy ANY AND ALL chance of having a fun, competative, and fair special event. Allies will win automatically. Japanese aircraft will be portrayed as even less competative than they were historically.


Reasons to add
"I wanna be in an uber plane so I can beat people who are better than me"
"I want my spit to have no disadvantage"
Its representative of the ETO for post-D-day situations

Reasons not to add
It will require a major overhaul of the perk points of all exisiting perk airframes
Many LW allied aircraft would need to be perked
It will be unrepresentative of pre-D-day situation
It will be unrepresentative of the PTO and CBI
It will destroy any and all special events
It will likely shoot the MA's in the face, as far as fun-factor is concerned

Any commentary from a Luftwaffe focused type gets thrown out for bias.  Do not use special events as an excuse.  If anything they would be a justification for 150 fuel.  I am not advocating for it at all, but the poor overmatched, under modeled Lutwaffe excuse gets real old. 

How bout we perk the 109K and D9 since the were introduced after the Spit XIV and Tempest?

Can you imagine the whining on that?

[Tank-Ace]

No, special events is a perfectly fine reason not to model 150 octane fuel.


Why? We couldn't do any event pre D-day and have it be historically accurate. We couldn't do PTO events with the P-51 and have them be accurate.


K4? maybe, even if it would be both stupid and unpopular, but only because its about comparable to the already-perked spit 14. However, I think you know full well that perking has nothing what so ever to do with service dates.




No, its not a "oh poor luftwaffe" argument. I would just enjoy a fighting chance in a post D-day scenario. I mean, if the P-51 and spit 14 had 150 octane fuel modeled, about the only chance the axis would have is if about 1/2 of all points/objectives are GV based.

I mean, historically speaking, well over half the fight was fought on the ground. You want to historically represent 150 octane fuel, then theres no reason not to historically represent the fighting on the ground.