No Icons for enemy

[Vinkman]

Vinkman,

Your sales pitch is based on your personal feelings and offering the customer noIcons to eliminate the advantage experienced by those who live in the DA practicing ACM that dominates in the LWMA. So the only response perceived by you, unless I want to insult my own intelligence is personal by my analyzing your sales pitch for what it is.

None of you are selling this concept other than from your personal feelings. So far you only offer the imagery that it effectively castrates the existing food chain as it stands in the LWMA and will magically make anyone agreeing with you superior to a muppet by that virtue if only Mr. HiTech will give you what you want. You are selling customers their own class envy of the LWMA's top of the food chain as the reason they should support your wish and vote for your dream. In the end you can deliver nothing to them other than conning them with their emotions. Eventualy the top of the food chain in the current Icon dominated LWMA if they chose to stay in the game would be the top of the food chain in your utopian arena.

I will bet the CM group for the AvA will work with you to present a once a week No Icons LWMA night to help test your as of yet unproven crowd appeal to No Icons as the next defacto standard in Aces High's evolution. Otherwise you don't have any collateral in hand to induce HiTech to change the Icon standard for all of his paying customers. Just your feelings.

First, I'm not convinced I'm correct about Icons. Second, My skill set is pretty solid. I kill boat loads of folks in LWMA.     I'm not selling gimmicks to improve my survival or kill ratio.  It's not productive claim facts not in evidence visa vi, motives of why someone thinks no icon is better. Then use those non-facts as resons to not have the discussion.  


I was merely stating that I loved the AVA format, and why I liked it. I was then offering my theory of how it might impact the LWMA based on what I learned in AVA, and simultaniously questioning pre-concieved notions that proport to know the outcome of such an experiment before it's tried. I think the AVA is a successfull experiment, because most folks that tried it, liked it. They don't stay in the AVA for the same reason I don't. Plane set is limited and LWMA has the critical mass, so LWMA type action I.E. base taking, GV fights,  etc..doesn't develop in AVA.  

Putting Hydrogen and helium in a jar doesn't make them the Sun, it takes a lot of them to make it work. so be carefull about drawing conclusions about what folks like based on Arena attendance.

[Vinkman]

A faith based argument. Show me the data.

Please do not edit my Post by adding information I never typed and make it look like I typed something I did not. Thank you.

Secondly, it's not a faith based argument. I presented data, which was my experience in the AVA. It seems nearly all first hand accounts of dog fights and from real pilots who have commented here say Planes are very hard to see.

There is a difference between the above and the many others who keep repeating an anacdotal story of human eye versus screen resolution that they have no actual knowlege of. As if they are saying "the science has been settled" without ever having seen the proof.  Reminds me of the global warming debacle.  

[trigger2]

Not sure how many of you have actually flown an aircraft IRL, but seeing other aircraft below the horizon against regular terrain is tough, even when ATC tells you where to look.

Pand,
I fly SAR seeking aircraft on the ground, personell on the ground, and other aircraft in my area. Yes, I know how "difficult" it can be (usually the difficulty in spotting them is an obstruction on the aircraft, ie my strut's in the way), but at D4k, I can identify the type and color of the aircraft. All that was needed to identify FoF in here. Should we turn off icons, we wouldn't be able to ID a plane's paint scheme until my G1000 would be screaming "TRAFFIC" into my headset (and no... those aren't pleasant times). We have the same limitations of physical barriers blocking our view of other aircraft. That's why if I'm looking for something in game, I'm flying banked using rudder to keep alt. and looking over the nose.

It's quite spectacular to see how far you can see (http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm). If at 15k I can see for over 150 miles, I have a hunch I can ID something only about 2% of my maximum sight distance away.

Long story short:
In game, something that shows up as a single black pixle, IRL, I'd be able to ID as a C182 in our standard red white and blue scheme working the pattern with me.

[Vinkman]

Pand,
I fly SAR seeking aircraft on the ground, personell on the ground, and other aircraft in my area. Yes, I know how "difficult" it can be (usually the difficulty in spotting them is an obstruction on the aircraft, ie my strut's in the way), but at D4k, I can identify the type and color of the aircraft. All that was needed to identify FoF in here. Should we turn off icons, we wouldn't be able to ID a plane's paint scheme until my G1000 would be screaming "TRAFFIC" into my headset (and no... those aren't pleasant times). We have the same limitations of physical barriers blocking our view of other aircraft. That's why if I'm looking for something in game, I'm flying banked using rudder to keep alt. and looking over the nose.

It's quite spectacular to see how far you can see (http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm). If at 15k I can see for over 150 miles, I have a hunch I can ID something only about 2% of my maximum sight distance away.

Long story short:
In game, something that shows up as a single black pixle, IRL, I'd be able to ID as a C182 in our standard red white and blue scheme working the pattern with me.

yes but you don't need to id the Paint schene at 4k in AH. If is doesn't have an icon, it's an enemy. All you have to do is have about the same statistical probabliity of seeing an object and knowing's there as in real life. The question is whether the statistics are closer with the icons for enemy on vs. Off?
 I think the answer is 95% probablity at 6K with Icons on. What is it in real life at 6K for a plane somewhere in the complete sphere arround your plane?

With Icons off I'd say it's closer to...
10% at 6K
25% at 4K
50% 3K
75% 2K
100% 1K or less

[trigger2]

yes but you don't need to id the Paint schene at 4k in AH. If is doesn't have an icon, it's an enemy. All you have to do is have about the same statistical probabliity of seeing an object and knowing's there as in real life. The question is whether the statistics are closer with the icons for enemy on vs. Off?
 I think the answer is 95% probablity at 6K with Icons on. What is it in real life at 6K for a plane somewhere in the complete sphere arround your plane?

With Icons off I'd say it's closer to...
10% at 6K
25% at 4K
50% 3K
75% 2K
100% 1K or less

6k (unless I'm totally misunderstanding the distance mechanism, this is 6000 yards)... 18,000 feet.
Most runways that I fly out of are about 5000 feet.
So, by this, I'd be unable to ID an aircraft type that was on a straight-in final if I was doing my runup at the opposite end of the runway? 3 General Aviation runway lengths isn't too far to get all the data that icons give that a single black pixle won't.

Example:
D4.5k (13,500 ft, ~2.5 runway lengths)


If not for icons. I'd see a black dot. IRL, I'd be able to start prepping for the fight by knowing aircraft type and rough distance/close rate (speed, e, smack, whatever you want to call it).

[Arlo]

Please do not edit my Post by adding information I never typed and make it look like I typed something I did not. Thank you.

Secondly, it's not a faith based argument. I presented data, which was my experience in the AVA. It seems nearly all first hand accounts of dog fights and from real pilots who have commented here say Planes are very hard to see.

When someone puts brackets in another's quote it is not making it 'look like (you) typed something (you) did not.' What I was doing was clarifying what the actual situation was versus your misperception.

You stated: "I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula."

The 'LWMA' hasn't 'found the ultimate settings formula.' Dale and HTC is in charge of that based upon their experience and player feedback.

Again, your 'belief' does not a known factual statement make, since you are demanding scientific proof of others.

Your experience in AvA is not a large enough sampling. A sampling of one may support an opinion but can not speak for the minority, much less the majority and certainly cannot offer a sound basis for a presentation of 'proof' (as you apparently demand of others). Just sayin'. Not saying others don't share your opinion based on their own individual experience. I share the opinion of many here, myself. You're not in a real cockpit experiencing a true 3D environment.

[Vinkman]

When someone puts brackets in another's quote it is not making it 'look like (you) typed something (you) did not.' What I was doing was clarifying what the actual situation was versus your misperception.

You stated: "I don't believe it's because the LWMA has found the ultimate settings formula."

The 'LWMA' hasn't 'found the ultimate settings formula.' Dale and HTC is in charge of that based upon their experience and player feedback.

Again, your 'belief' does not a known factual statement make, since you are demanding scientific proof of others.

Your experience in AvA is not a large enough sampling. A sampling of one may support an opinion but can not speak for the minority, much less the majority and certainly cannot offer a sound basis for a presentation of 'proof' (as you apparently demand of others). Just sayin'. Not saying others don't share your opinion based on their own individual experience. I share the opinion of many here, myself. You're not in a real cockpit experiencing a true 3D environment.

I don't want to argue with you. You have chosen to ref the discussion instead of add something to the discussion. The Post above from Trigger is an example od good addition to the discussion. 

[Arlo]

I don't want to argue with you. You have chosen to ref the discussion instead of add something to the discussion. The Post above from Trigger is an example od good addition to the discussion.  

And you're adding, via this post?

Here, let's play 'addition' (here's a counter opinion to your opinion) versus 'analysis' (aka: an opinion regarding a potential flaw in your argument).

First, for clarification (not necessarily required for all) - we're not talking about flying without icons from a player's own viewpoint but eliminating the icon option for all players in the area. Now the obvious eliminates the 'just turn off icons' ... um .... argument.

This is not an unknown setting in AvA.

Why should this be a setting in the MA and how will this:

1) Benefit HTC?

2) Make the game more fun overall for the entire player base?

3) (And for shots and giggles) Benefit the AvA subset of the community?

At this point it may behoove us to examine why AvA and MA are different.

Why was the AvA arena created? Quite simply, it was created to offer an historical, 2 sided environment with a 24/7 availability. Additional realism settings were an afterthought. Not necessarily a bad one .... for the dedicated AvA crowd .... but not a player magnet when it comes to attracting dedicated MA folk.

So why impose this setting on the MA crowd? Is this an attempt to force their skill set to match what may be required in AvA? Why? To replace the AvA?

Why is the MA set up the way it is (the 'ultimate' settings formula)? Well, first off, it's not just settings. It's design. Dale's design, btw. It's a three-sided map that has nothing to do with history. Players can fly any plane from any of the countries represented in the planeset against that same model being flown by a player representing a different ... chess piece. So far it doesn't sound like a design devoted to mimicking our grandfather's experiences. It's set up as a game as much as a sim. But the MA is not designed to simulate an historical setting nor is it designed with an idea that 'less is more' (disabling features and settings making the game experience 'more fun'). It's actually more of a 'what else can we ADD to the game' type of enviroment. Some of these additions may well benefit events, even ... from a technical standpoint.

Aces High has different arenas to cater to different likes. There really is a reason for that. Most of the players like the MA and it's not uncommon for an MA player to try the AvA and not fall in love with it ... due to the settings or even the limited plane set. MA players are, by and large, not really into artificial restrictions on the game/their version of fun in AHII.

Does this mean I don't like the AvA arena? Anyone who really knows me and my history in the game would know better.  

Ok, so .... I would love to see a valid argument as to why forcing AvA settings onto the MA arena would benefit the game, overall, or even the AvA arena and dedicated community ... but I'm not seeing one yet. Whoops .... guess I just stopped 'adding' to the conversation again.  

[Vinkman]

And you're adding, via this post?

Here, let's play 'addition' (here's a counter opinion to your opinion) versus 'analysis' (aka: an opinion regarding a potential flaw in your argument).

First, for clarification (not necessarily required for all) - we're not talking about flying without icons from a player's own viewpoint but eliminating the icon option for all players in the area. Now the obvious eliminates the 'just turn off icons' ... um .... argument.

This is not an unknown setting in AvA.

Why should this be a setting in the MA and how will this:

1) Benefit HTC?

2) Make the game more fun overall for the entire player base?

3) (And for shots and giggles) Benefit the AvA subset of the community?

At this point it may behoove us to examine why AvA and MA are different.

Why was the AvA arena created? Quite simply, it was created to offer an historical, 2 sided environment with a 24/7 availability. Additional realism settings were an afterthought. Not necessarily a bad one .... for the dedicated AvA crowd .... but not a player magnet when it comes to attracting dedicated MA folk.

So why impose this setting on the MA crowd? Is this an attempt to force their skill set to match what may be required in AvA? Why? To replace the AvA?

Why is the MA set up the way it is (the 'ultimate' settings formula)? Well, first off, it's not just settings. It's design. Dale's design, btw. It's a three-sided map that has nothing to do with history. Players can fly any plane from any of the countries represented in the planeset against that same model being flown by a player representing a different ... chess piece. So far it doesn't sound like a design devoted to mimicking our grandfather's experiences. It's set up as a game as much as a sim. But the MA is not designed to simulate an historical setting nor is it designed with an idea that 'less is more' (disabling features and settings making the game experience 'more fun'). It's actually more of a 'what else can we ADD to the game' type of enviroment. Some of these additions may well benefit events, even ... from a technical standpoint.

Aces High has different arenas to cater to different likes. There really is a reason for that. Most of the players like the MA and it's not uncommon for an MA player to try the AvA and not fall in love with it ... due to the settings or even the limited plane set. MA players are, by and large, not really into artificial restrictions on the game/their version of fun in AHII.

Does this mean I don't like the AvA arena? Anyone who really knows me and my history in the game would know better.  

Ok, so .... I would love to see a valid argument as to why forcing AvA settings onto the MA arena would benefit the game, overall, or even the AvA arena and dedicated community ... but I'm not seeing one yet. Whoops .... guess I just stopped 'adding' to the conversation again.  

EW, MW, LW are all the same arena settings except for plane set. AVA is a different plane set too. So what we conclude is the LW plane set is the dominant factor in arena choice. That means icon ON/OFF does not effect arena choice.  So having icons turned off in AVA proves nothing about LWMA acceptance of "No Enemy Icons"

I'll adress the "simulation" argument. there is a trade off between Real and FUN. When you find things that add realism AND add fun, it's an easy choice. So th ediscussion on no ENEMY ICON for LWMA is whether it's more or less realism...and whether it's more or less fun.

I have been attempting to get to the bottom of whether it is more or less real.
Whether it's more fun, depends. I think if limited to one night a week it would be more fun just for that night as a change of pace. If it was a new rule that stayed that way all the time, people would get used to it and relative "fun" factor would decrease. to the point of plenty of Wish lists" asking for Enemy icons because blah blah blah.. And those reasons would be valid.

I never said No-icons shoudl be the law of the land in LWMA. I said it would be fun to do it one night a week, like we used to do Titanic Tuesdays.

back on topic...

So is it More real?
And is it more fun?

back on topic...

[Arlo]

EW, MW, LW are all the same arena settings except for plane set. AVA is a different plane set too. So what we conclude is the LW plane set is the dominant factor in arena choice. That means icon ON/OFF does not effect arena choice.  So having icons turned off in AVA proves nothing about LWMA acceptance of "No Enemy Icons"

Not what 'we' conclude, what you conclude. I've seen players come into the AvA either by invite or curiousity and not complain about the plane set but complain about the settings. I've seen the plane set be complained about, as well. One does not preclude the other in apparent preference.

I'll adress the "simulation" argument. there is a trade off between Real and FUN. When you find things that add realism AND add fun, it's an easy choice. So the discussion on no ENEMY ICON for LWMA is whether it's more or less realism...and whether it's more or less fun.

Actually, the heart of the argument appears to be about more realism. Added to that is a premise that the general population of players would eventually find it more fun. Regrettably, such a premise runs contrary to both experience and common business sense of both the HTC main arena design and business plan.

I have been attempting to get to the bottom of whether it is more or less real.
Whether it's more fun, depends. I think if limited to one night a week it would be more fun just for that night as a change of pace. If it was a new rule that stayed that way all the time, people would get used to it and relative "fun" factor would decrease. to the point of plenty of Wish lists" asking for Enemy icons because blah blah blah.. And those reasons would be valid.

Making this wish a long term usless exercise?

I never said No-icons shoudl be the law of the land in LWMA. I said it would be fun to do it one night a week, like we used to do Titanic Tuesdays.

back on topic...

So is it More real?
And is it more fun?

back on topic...

Back on topic?

[seano]

they could call it a test arena, so as not to scare anyone.

[Arlo]

they could call it a test arena, so as not to scare anyone.

The could call it SEA I or SEA II, as well. Arena message: "Between events, feel free to come see what the pizza map feels like with no icons. We'll be doing a head-count to test popularity."  

But then, HT has weighed in on this thread and the argument persists. 

[Vinkman]

Not what 'we' conclude, what you conclude. I've seen players come into the AvA either by invite or curiousity and not complain about the plane set but complain about the settings. I've seen the plane set be complained about, as well. One does not preclude the other in apparent preference.

Circular.  

Actually, the heart of the argument appears to be about more realism.

Well yes, but by realism I mean how it affects combat scenarios and tactics. Not realism for realism's sake...

Added to that is a premise that the general population of players would eventually find it more fun. Regrettably, such a premise runs contrary to both experience and common business sense of both the HTC main arena design and business plan.

Then the question is would the change in tactacs be more fun or less fun.
[Edited].

Making this wish a long term usless exercise?

I'm saying a little variety keeps thing intersting. This comunity craves change and evolution of the game. That's what 95% of the posts are about and 95% of the work that HTC does is about. Every change doesn;t have to be permanent. Examples of wishes that were entertained on limited basis....

Shooting the great pumpkin
The great alien Claw inviasion.
Wind
Titanic Tuesdays.

So doesn't than mean others are possible to try out also? like these...
Some night time hours in the MA
No enemy Icon night
The wish list is full of fun ideas that might be tried or experimented with in the LWMA. Which is the only arena valid experiments can be conducted in.  

[/quote]

[Arlo]

Circular.

Not on my part, I assure you.  

Well yes, but by realism I mean how it affects combat scenarios and tactics. Not realism for realism's sake...

Then the question is would the change in tactacs be more fun or less fun.
BTW, Do you have an insite to how Icons affect the HTC main arena design and business plan? Can share with the rest of us? I had no idea you were privey to HTC's inner think tank.

Are you thinking this is a new discussion or that HT has never weighed in on this before?

I'm saying a little variety keeps thing intersting. This comunity craves change and evolution of the game. That's what 95% of the posts are about and 95% of the work that HTC does is about. Every change doesn;t have to be permanent. Examples of wishes that were entertained on limited basis....

HT has catered to variety. It's called hosting multiple arenas in spite of popularity or use. HT has even made adjustments in the MA. But not in a hasty or hectic manner. This is more than a hobby to him.

Shooting the great pumpkin
The great alien Claw inviasion.
Wind
Titanic Tuesdays.

so doesn't than mean others are possible to try out also? like these...
Some night time hours in the MA
No enemy Icon night
The wish list is full of fun ideas that might be tried or experimented with in the LWMA. Which is the only arena valid experiments can be conducted in.  

The wish list is full of ideas of all kinds and 'fun' is subjective. Practicality, however, seldom is.

[seano]

i just wish he'd try it out sometime, thats all i "wish".