Why can AH planes climb when missing a wing by bank ing 90.....

[hitech]

Lift is not the force that produces climb in an aircraft. Thrust/inertia is the force that produces a climb.

Lift by definition is a force perpendicular to an objects velocity vector. Any discussion of aerodynamics must start with the definitions of forces. Thrust is the sum of forces in the direction of the velocity vector. Drag is the sum of forces in the direction opposite the velocity vector.

The 4th force that is normally considered is Gravity, it is different then all other forces because it is a world relative force / acceleration vs an object relative force.

A simple thought experiment is to realize that to hold a perfectly vertical zoom climb, lift must be zero.

-----------

I have personally changed direction flying my RV8 from level flight in a 90deg bank to a climbing attitude while in a 90 deg bank.

PS. If you haven't done it before, it makes for a nice bump on the side of the head.

HiTech

[Skyyr]

Lift is not the force that produces climb in an aircraft.

Lift by definition is a force perpendicular to an objects velocity vector.

HiTech

Thank you.

[hitech]

In a normal configuration airplane (of which all but the 163 in aces high are) the elevator/stab provides downforce to pivot the plane such that the wing achieves enough angle of attack to provide lift to climb

This is a very common miss conception. There is no need for an the elevator/Hstab to produce a down force. Only requirement for stable flight is that the CG is ahead of the net CL including both the horizontal stab and the wing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_static_stability



HiTech

[LCADolby]

I doubt we will see icepac in a while, he is very busy trying to get a 1 winged aircraft to fly and climb as he has stated.

I'm hoping this research and determination to prove such keeps him away from AcesHigh for the next few years 

[icepac]

So what generated the lift to go from level flight to a climb in your rv8 while in a 90 degree bank?

What other surface was the rudder pivoting the plane on?

Surely, the rv8 doesn't have a lifting body design of the fuselage.

My point is that the planes represented in aces high never could go from a descent or level flight to a positive rate of climb by banking and using the rudder only.

No need to involve anything other than what is in the planeset.

This is a very common miss conception. There is no need for an the elevator/Hstab to produce a down force. Only requirement for stable flight is that the CG is ahead of the net CL including both the horizontal stab and the wing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_static_stability

(Image removed from quote.)

Sure......there are situations where the stabilizer is not providing downforce but to change from level flight to a climb will require it to provide downforce going  by your example of no downforce.

So.....in the example you show above, let's assume the plane is in level flight and the pilot wants to climb

You are saying that the airplane would not require downforce to change the angle of attack to climb?

You are saying that the horizontal stab./elevator are providing no downforce in your example.........when is that?....................in level flight or after it commanded to climb?

"When" is just as important as other points of data because we are talking about something that is dynamic and not static.

[hitech]

Surely, the rv8 doesn't have a lifting body design of the fuselage.

The side of the plane is producing lift.

A flat surface is a lifting body when rotated to have an angle of attack. Have you ever seen videos of boats or race cars flying into the air from a bump that suddenly causes an AOA?

Flying level just push the rudder on any plane while holding the wings level, the plane will fly in  a circle. The force that is turning the plane in a circle is the lift (a horizontal vector) produced by the fuselage and vertical stab.

When are you saying that the horizontal stab./elevator are providing no downforce in yoru example.........when is that?....................in level flight or after it commanded to climb?

"When" is just as important as other points of data because we are talking about something that is dynamic and not static.

No down force is required, just less up force and the plane will rotate.

HiTech

[Skyyr]

The side of the plane is producing lift.

A flat surface is a lifting body when rotated to have an angle of attack. Have you ever seen videos of boats or race cars flying into the air from a bump that suddenly causes an AOA?

Hmmmm.... where have I heard that before, Icepac?

Further, you completely ignored my answer to your question in this post. At high-speed knife-edge flight, the fuselage and rudder ARE the lifting surfaces. Watch the video of the F-15 I posted - it's the same concept. The difference is that the flight isn't sustainable, but instantaneous lift still IS possible.

The F15 produced lift not because of independent elevators, but because of the mechanics of high-speed airflow. Any object, even a brick (yes, literally a brick), will generate actual lift at sufficiently high speeds.

[icepac]

The side of the plane is producing lift.

A flat surface is a lifting body when rotated to have an angle of attack. Have you ever seen videos of boats or race cars flying into the air from a bump that suddenly causes an AOA?

Flying level just push the rudder on any plane while holding the wings level, the plane will fly in  a circle. The force that is turning the plane in a circle is the lift (a horizontal vector) produced by the fuselage and vertical stab.

No down force is required, just less up force and the plane will rotate.

HiTech

Yes, but the rudder, in a 90 degree bank will need to generate downforce to raise the nose such that the "side of the plane" can provide lift.

Still.....this discussion is about whether the planes of aces high can demonstrate a positive rate of climb from level flight while missing a wing by banking 90 degrees and using the rudder.

So which aces high planes, in real life, ever achieved a positive rate of climb from level flight while missing a wing by banking 90 degrees and using the rudder?

[hitech]

Yes, but the rudder, in a 90 degree bank will need to generate downforce to raise the nose such that the "side of the plane" can provide lift.

Not necessarily, it is the same stability arrangement as a wing and a horizontal stab. It simply needs to have the sum of torques to be in the desired direction relative to the CG.  But my guess would be the force at the tail would be down on most planes. But which direction the force is doesn't make any difference to this discussion. It only changes the quantity of the net total force, not the direction.

[icepac]

How many pounds of downforce do you think the elevators are exerting these two airplanes?

We don't need an exact figure but "a lot" is probably pretty accurate and that's "a lot" more than "none".

Surely enough to "oilcan" the fuselage skin.

So you guys still think a WWII plane could climb while missing a wing by banking 90 degrees and using the rudder?

How much downforce would a rudder need to "chase down"  and then pass the rest of the fuselage which is falling quickly because of the missing wing and then pivot the fuselage enough to cause it to act like a lifting body to establish a positive rate of climb having started from either a descent or level flight?

[pervert]

[Brooke]

In aces high, what is providing the lift

Well, it's been posted several times already.  I don't think that you are reading it:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360200.msg4780995.html#msg4780995

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360200.msg4781529.html#msg4781529

[Vudu15]

Big difference between a whole wing and a half wing brought many a plane home on a half wing. It takes quick thought for each aircraft.

[Estes]

Man, I wish math came as easy for me as it does some of you guys. 

[Arlo]

Two pounds of cotton plus two pounds of gold = _____