Author Topic: Top E Planes (non-perky)  (Read 11460 times)

Offline shift8

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2016, 10:37:49 AM »
Speaking purely about the MA game, the Spit 14 has no place there (look how horribly it's actually performing in the MA stats). Replace it with the Tempest. Oddly, while being one of the biggest MA dominators since it was introduced, it's hardly ever mentioned.

MA stats are irrelevant in large part. People fly planes for a ton of reasons that have more to do with their favored style of fight than anything else. Hence why you see so many Spit 9s, and 16's: 9 being plainly worse and the 16 having only a slight advantage in turn rate and being much slower with equal climb. You also see alot of zeros, c205s, and plenty of other planes that get used alot. Getting used means more kills. Notice I technically omitted the 51 from the list despite it being #1 all the time in the MA stats list. Kills are a poor indicator of performance. Kinematics are the only thing that matters. Not to mention that pilot skill has alot to do with that, and alot of planes that get alot of kills are gravitated towards because the suit turn-only fighting because the majority of the players in the MA only want to furball. Specifically, the Spit 14 has near 16 levels of turn and is much faster with the same range and climb characteristics. It is objectively a excellent plane. Essentially, its a short ranged plane that has P-51 Speed and Spit agility.

I agree with your tempest suggestion however, as it is extremely fast. It does deserve to be considered.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2016, 11:17:01 AM »
Notice I technically omitted the 51 from the list despite it being #1 all the time in the MA stats list.

I wasn't talking about how much it is used (51 only #1 in that), but about the combat performance as reflected in the stats (for example K/D). OF course, several factors have an impact, most notably if a plane is being used as a bomb truck. However, there are a few pure fighters which are almost exclusively used in air to air roles, and things like k/d (especially a2a K/D) get more significant then

The Spit 14 has a history of average to even bad k/d performance, even back when it was perked and players did fly it less and more careful to save their perks. This is a direct result of it's poor actual combat performance in AH. Good specs on paper, but a quirky plane, quite an unstable weapons platform that needs a very experienced hand and a lot of discipline to compete at standard MA combat altitudes where it has a great rate of climb, but not exactly a stellar top speed or maneuverability.
I remember quite clear when some of us campaigned for the unperking of the 14 and based this on the actual performance and capability of this plane which by no means deserved a perk status. We were told here that "you would get an arena full of spit 14s" and it would quickly dominate the opposition.  Well, the reality turned out to be quite different... ;)
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Offline shift8

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2016, 11:43:16 AM »
I wasn't talking about how much it is used (51 only #1 in that), but about the combat performance as reflected in the stats (for example K/D). OF course, several factors have an impact, most notably if a plane is being used as a bomb truck. However, there are a few pure fighters which are almost exclusively used in air to air roles, and things like k/d (especially a2a K/D) get more significant then

The Spit 14 has a history of average to even bad k/d performance, even back when it was perked and players did fly it less and more careful to save their perks. This is a direct result of it's poor actual combat performance in AH. Good specs on paper, but a quirky plane, quite an unstable weapons platform that needs a very experienced hand and a lot of discipline to compete at standard MA combat altitudes where it has a great rate of climb, but not exactly a stellar top speed or maneuverability.
I remember quite clear when some of us campaigned for the unperking of the 14 and based this on the actual performance and capability of this plane which by no means deserved a perk status. We were told here that "you would get an arena full of spit 14s" and it would quickly dominate the opposition.  Well, the reality turned out to be quite different... ;)

Not sure how you think it doesnt have steller speed or even agility. It has a top speed that is withing a few mph of any of the speed demons in game, such as the P-51, 190D, f4u-4. It is in the general 440mph at altitude, 370mph class on the deck class broadly speaking. Its turn rate is only slightly worse than a Spit 16, with worse roll but still very good. The in its speed class the only thing that can turn with it is a -4. Outside it speed class, generally only other spits can best it. And anything more agile than that is stupid slow. So far a quirks are concerned, I did mention that the P-51 might warrant a spot for just such a reason, since it combines high end speed with a stable platform that has alot of other "ergonomic" advantages. But soft factors like that are secondary. The only quirk I can think of on the Spit 16 that is serious is the tendency to lose roll control at very high speeds, but that is something most of the spits have a issue with.

As for the MA usage, I think it is fair to say that the common flight sim plays gravitates to whatever is the easiest and most nimble thing they can get their hands on. After that there are alot people flying planes simply because they like them. Then on top of that there is what you are trying to achieve in a sortie. For example, you might take a G-14 over a K-4 simply because the 20mm means more kills, despite the K-4 being the objectively superior plane. These are just some of the reasons I dont take the k/d in the MA at face value. Also another aspect is range. Its one of the reasons spits in general, which crazy common in AH, are not the only thing anyone flys. If the spit had 51 range, it probably be the only think flying the game.

Offline Randall172

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2016, 11:52:53 AM »
Just IMHO, but comparing performance using only the main models of planes (ie: models in large numbers in not post mid-44) Id put the nations in this order for the follow criteria.

USA, UK, Germany, Russia, Japan (for all round fighters, if you could only pick one)

Spitfire of course is the best pure fighter, when compared to any contemporary aircraft. Although If I had to pick one plane to equip my entire fighter arm, it would be the P-51.

Speaking purely game however (MA): the best fighter in the game is a contest between the Spit 14, F4U-4, and 109K4. You might add the 51 in there if "usability" characteristics are being considered, like stability in aiming during a dive, or cockpit visability.

NO LA7? speed demon, great turn rate, crazy climb -> low alt demon

Offline Lusche

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2016, 12:07:37 PM »
Not sure how you think it doesnt have steller speed or even agility. It has a top speed that is withing a few mph of any of the speed demons in game, such as the P-51, 190D, f4u-4. It is in the general 440mph at altitude, 370mph class on the deck class broadly speaking.


The speed at high altitude is really great, but not very important for almost all battles in AH. Most fighter combat is happenign quite close to the deck, and very often ends up exactly there.
On the deck, the Spit 14 does just about 360mph, which is good, but not 'stellar', as there are 13 fighters which are even faster than the 14. It's just in the middle of a group consisting of F4U1-a, Ta 152 (faster) and F4U-1, P-51B, Yak-9U (slower). It's high speed/diving roll rate is almost non existent, and, as said before, it's a unstable weapons platform - which is what makes it 'quirky'

A good, experienced and disciplined pilot can have some very good success with that plane, no doubt. But that can be said of a lot of others. In the end, the Spit 14 is shot out of the sky in air to air combat astonishingly often, despite being a pure fighter and thus never being caught with tons of bombs on a suicide mission. No way it's in the top 3 of MA fighters, whatever way you are looking at it.



For reference:



These are just some of the reasons I dont take the k/d in the MA at face value.

Neither do I. I don't just look at the overall K/D and say how 'good' a plane is. But when a pure fighter ends up with a K/D less than 0.8, it can't be perfoming that well in the MA. And certainly not good enough to call it a "top 3 fighter" :)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 12:13:35 PM by Lusche »
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Offline shift8

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2016, 01:06:09 PM »

The speed at high altitude is really great, but not very important for almost all battles in AH. Most fighter combat is happenign quite close to the deck, and very often ends up exactly there.
On the deck, the Spit 14 does just about 360mph, which is good, but not 'stellar', as there are 13 fighters which are even faster than the 14. It's just in the middle of a group consisting of F4U1-a, Ta 152 (faster) and F4U-1, P-51B, Yak-9U (slower). It's high speed/diving roll rate is almost non existent, and, as said before, it's a unstable weapons platform - which is what makes it 'quirky'

A good, experienced and disciplined pilot can have some very good success with that plane, no doubt. But that can be said of a lot of others. In the end, the Spit 14 is shot out of the sky in air to air combat astonishingly often, despite being a pure fighter and thus never being caught with tons of bombs on a suicide mission. No way it's in the top 3 of MA fighters, whatever way you are looking at it.



For reference:

(Image removed from quote.)

Neither do I. I don't just look at the overall K/D and say how 'good' a plane is. But when a pure fighter ends up with a K/D less than 0.8, it can't be perfoming that well in the MA. And certainly not good enough to call it a "top 3 fighter" :)

360 mph puts in the the top end of the speed quadrant in the since that there are very fighters that are much faster than it. And it quite a bit faster at any alt that isnt the deck. For example, I discount russian plane almost entirely, since their inability to be effective higher up means they are always at the mercy of planes that can control the high ground. Maybe most players fight at low alt, but what most players do isnt always optimal. WW2 made it pretty clear, and so does the MA, the planes with the most speed and best altitude performance are overall better. This is because they can come in up high, win any fight up there, and then attack anyhting down low. Or in the case of AH, simply come in high, find nothing up there, and go to town on planes below them. A disciplined pilot can maintain at least 8000ft of altitude in zooms. I do it all the time. I dont dispute that there are some fighters that are a few mph faster than it, but that makes for a tiny margin of error in terms of extending form it. And it is much more agile than most of the planes that can barely catch it. Not to mention that it is faster at many altitudes that are not the deck. This is one of the reasons the mustang and tempest excel. They are faster at almost any altitude even if there are few planes that can catch them at some places. Sea level speed is one of the least important. Alot of people talk about how the la7 can catch the mustang, but in actual practice a good pony pilot knows he can get away at any alt that isnt below 8k. Perhaps my list wasnt big enough, as I do think the tempest and Ta152 should also merit consideration. But at the very least the spit 14 is a once of the "class A" fighters in the game. Ill try to list all of them off the top of my head: P-51, spit 14, ta 152, 109D, 109K4, La7, f4u-4, Yak-3. I am sure I missed something as Im not looking at the list right now. But excluding range, from a pure fighter standpoint the spit has advantages over all those planes (or is basically equal) in all the characteristics that allow it to determine what kind of fight is going to take place. IE: it is either faster everywhere, faster at altitude, or so similar that its agility would most likely be the deciding factor. Anyhow, I think a debate can certainly be had as to which of those fighters is "the best" but I think the 14 deserves serious consideration.

Offline shift8

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2016, 01:09:19 PM »
http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=24&pw=1&gtype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData

For the yak 9U, note this chart. This Spit is either much faster or has parity. And agility wise my bet is one the spit, since it has a 16 second turn time (closer to 16.5). I havent tested the Yak9U, but the yak3 is a 17 second turner...and if the spit uses the vertical....http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/ahplaneperf/?Itemid=139

Offline FLS

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2016, 01:29:16 PM »
The problem with the Spit14 is that the prop turns the wrong way.  :D

Offline morfiend

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2016, 08:13:48 PM »

That would be Puma44.

The AvA used to have Spits v Zekes periodically, ranging from Spit Vs (the old version) v. A6M2s to Spit 8s and 9s v. A6M5.  Uniformly the Spits were toast.

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 I knew it was Puma,I was trying to be funny but failed....... :furious


  I'm sure the spits were toast,but I wouldnt say that was the planes fault...... :noid   And the reason I slyly quoted Puma... :devil

  I do think the zeros are underrated "E"fighter,because they turn so well!



  YMMV!


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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2016, 11:29:00 PM »
http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=24&pw=1&gtype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData

For the yak 9U, note this chart. This Spit is either much faster or has parity. And agility wise my bet is one the spit, since it has a 16 second turn time (closer to 16.5). I havent tested the Yak9U, but the yak3 is a 17 second turner...and if the spit uses the vertical

Spit 14 climbs like the proverbial homesick angel, but it is extremely unstable. I consider it one of the two or three AH planes that are most difficult to fly well.

Oldman

Offline GScholz

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2016, 12:10:27 AM »
Just IMHO, but comparing performance using only the main models of planes (ie: models in large numbers in not post mid-44) Id put the nations in this order for the follow criteria.

USA, UK, Germany, Russia, Japan (for all round fighters, if you could only pick one)

Spitfire of course is the best pure fighter, when compared to any contemporary aircraft. Although If I had to pick one plane to equip my entire fighter arm, it would be the P-51.

Speaking purely game however (MA): the best fighter in the game is a contest between the Spit 14, F4U-4, and 109K4. You might add the 51 in there if "usability" characteristics are being considered, like stability in aiming during a dive, or cockpit visability.

I'm speaking exclusively about real life, not in this game. In real life the Luftwaffe enjoyed a superiority or parity of fighter performance in five out of six war years. Of course, the one-year period they didn't is when they lost the air war over Europe, and the Luftwaffe was all but destroyed.

From the start of the war in 1939 until the Battle of Britain in 1940 the 109E and 110C ruled the skies of western Europe. When the RAF got Spitfires with the updated Rotol propeller they could match the 109E in performance. However, by the end of the BoB the Luftwaffe started receiving the first 109Fs, again achieving a performance advantage over the RAF. As Eric Brown would attest to after flying it, at this time the 109F was undoubtedly the best fighter in the world. The Luftwaffe would enjoy this advantage for more than a year with the advent of the Fw 190A. 1941 and 1942 was a bad time for the RAF and Commonwealth air forces in Africa, the Mediterranean and over the Channel. This is also the time "Jochen" Marseilles would amass his kills and certify his status as the "Star of Africa", flying the 109F.

This is also the time period where Japan and America entered the war. The best fighter in the Pacific at this time was the Zeke; the famous Mitsubishi A6M Type 0 Model 21. However, the 109, 190, and Spitfire were in a league of their own at this time in the war, with performance advantages that would be all but insurmountable to any Japanese, American or Soviet fighter in service. This is also the time when the numerically superior Red Air Force was all but destroyed by the Luftwaffe.

In the summer of 1942 the 404 mph Merlin 61/63 powered Spitfire IX achieved parity in performance with the 405 mph 109G and 408 mph 190A, ending the "twittler scourge". This parity would last for a year with the Luftwaffe scoring more kills over France and the Channel mostly because of tactical advantages, rather than a performance advantage. At this time there was little to choose between the three primary fighters in Europe, all having only slight advantages in some areas of performance at narrow altitude bands.

In the closing months of 1942 the Americans entered the war in Europe with their early models of the P-47C, but they fared poorly against the Luftwaffe. The P-47 would not become a mature weapon system until the D model.

This period of relative parity in performance would last until the fall of 1943 when the RAF got the excellent Merlin 66 powered Spitfire LF Mk IX (comparable to the Spitfire XVI in AH). The Americans had also started flying the P-47D. Although still a flawed design for high altitude combat, the P-47D would hold its own against the Luftwaffe using tactical advantages. This marked the end of Luftwaffe's superiority/parity in performance and the beginning of the end of the Luftwaffe itself. Still, the war-year 1943 would end with the Luftwaffe having won significant victories in the air war over Europe, destroying the American 8th Army Air Force three times over. Though it is arguable that this achievement would not have been possible without the insane American belief in the self escorting bomber concept.

With the advent of the excellent escort fighter P-51, and a completely revised Allied air war strategy the first half of 1944 saw the Luftwaffe swept from the skies of western Europe. Out performed, out trained, and most of all out produced, the Luftwaffe could not hope to win. The final nail in the coffin was when a desperate Luftwaffe closed down its pilot schools and sent the instructors to the front. By June 1944 the Allied air forces flew unopposed over western Europe.

Perhaps ironically, this moment in time also marks the end of the Allied superiority in fighter performance. Late spring, summer and fall of 1944 saw the introduction of several important German advances in fighter performance. The 109G-6/AS, 109G-14/AS, 190D-9, 109G-10, 109K-4, achieved performance parity with the Allied fighters roaming the skies over Europe. Some, like Eric Brown, would argue that the 190D-9 was the finest piston-engined fighter of the war.

Then there's this...



The supreme fighter of the war. The ne plus ultra. The revolutionary fighter that on 26 July 1944 rendered every other fighter in service anywhere hopelessly obsolete. The fighter that was hand built in forest clearings and railway tunnels from the crude materials that were available in a war-torn Germany. The fighter that was flown by a handful of veterans against thousands, THOUSANDS of Allied aircraft. Those who survived getting airborne from their vulched and beleaguered airfields were untouchable. Untouchable! They ripped through Allied bomber formations at will. Leaving the escort fighters behind with "a tap of the throttle".

So yeah... As far as fighter performance goes I say German > British > American > Soviet > Japanese.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 12:34:44 AM by GScholz »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2016, 12:20:21 AM »
"twittler scourge" lol. The profanity filter is very indiscriminate.  :rofl
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2016, 02:36:54 AM »
But at the very least the spit 14 is a once of the "class A" fighters in the game.

Hi Shift, have you done any comparitive flight testing, especially flat turning with the Spit14 versus the 16 say? If you have and filmed it I'd love to see the results. While I agree on paper the 14 looks like a boss in practice for me at least just doesn't seem to translate. I have trouble turning it below corner speed, the pitch seems closely coupled to the yaw contibuting to the nose  bounce so your boresight traces an elipse. Then there's the nasty uncommunicative nose-high-when-slow departure which leads to a very nast spin. Discounts the kind of tailstanding reversal antics the K-4 boys get away with, you just can't risk it in combat in the 14.

In testing I've even entered this departure engine off, so I've discounted the torque. My feeling (subjective feeling) is that the CofG is modelled incorrectly - too far aft. Not even the Spit historians I've asked know of any evidence of these handling issues in real life.

Also there's the WEP. Five minutes which is often one decent fight, after that rather feels like an overly-heavy Spit8 with that hobgoblin from the Twilight Zone fiddling with your surfaces. Very bad news because by then three LA7s have usually shown up  :rofl

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Offline icepac

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2016, 08:44:55 AM »
Sure. Good luck... ;)



Since the spitfire 1 came into service 1 month after the A6M2, shouldn't they be compared as well as the A6M3 vs the spitfire IX?

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2016, 10:02:47 AM »
The 14 is a tough bird to be good at. It's wings rip off too easily. It doesn't manuever like the spit16 or 8s. It should be flown purely in the BnZ style, but most people try to turn fight with it anyway because it's a spit. As far as E goes, I wouldn't put it at the top but it would still he top 10 as far as it's engine performance. It's just difficult to be supremely successful in it.
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