Problems and Solutions for the Main Arena:

[Doberman]

Originally posted by Sabre
Just as purposeless furballing eventually becomes boring, so to does milk-running against undefended bases and strat targets.  

Tell that to most of the Buffers.

D

[mrsid2]

What I dont understand is why the milkrunners pay to play online?

They could do all the milkrunning they want just by taking fields offline. The gameplay is exactly the same. The fun is exactly the same - and no skill needed in either one.

[bowser]

"....But, I'd agree that there's not a lot of whining in CT....".

Maybe it's because they get it out of their system here on the BBS.  Strange though...most of their whines are about the MA, even though they don't fly it anymore since they are so happy in the CT.

bowser

[Don]

>>Perhaps, rather than altering the MA, it's time for AH to offer more in the form of a second "main arena" with a different setup. Variety is a good thing. <<

Isn't there already a place like that called the CT (Combat Theatre) arena?

[Don]

>>IMO, only antitank guns (not present), other tanks, rockets or bombs should be able to kill a PzIV.<<

I don't agree at all. If you put enough ammo into a thing it ought to go boom; it just may take a lil longer for smaller caliber guns eg. .50 cal mgs etc. But the 20mm should be able to take out a pnzr IV, and a 37 mm ought to take one out easier than the 20mm.  The things is though, most of these weapons didnt have an unlimited amount of time to lay that much ammo on a pnzr before it found your range and blew you away. So ambush was the most effective way to kill panzers.
The thing I find curious in AH is the reason for 37mm guns as ack ack instead of the 75mm;80mm;88mm and 90mm guns which are historically accurate. If fields had those, then there would be a real reason for buffs to fly as high as they do. As it is, buffs fly high in the MA to avoid fiters, which makes sense as they tend to come over fields as a solo act.

[eskimo2]

Sabre, you really do "splain" stuff very well.  Salute.

I really don't think that an arena that promotes strategic game play greatly conflicts with the needs of  furballers.  In a strategic arena, strat guys and buff drivers have a variety of targets to attack.  They often hit cities, HQs, rear bases, and sometimes even trains, convoys, fuel, ammo, depots and training facilities.  This takes a lot of pressure off of busy front line bases.  Before the current strat set up, the last place that I or my squad would want to take a bomber/s to would be to a furball base.  A base that is involved in a furball typically has been under sporadic attack for hours.  This means that its hangers, ack, troops, fuel, radar, ammo and town are all out of sequence in regards to being up or down.  Not a good target for bombers or base capture.  A furball base also has tons of fighters at who knows what altitude, that are bound to give bombers or jabo planes a very hard time, and likewise a poor chance of getting through.  Lastly, a furball base is difficult to capture because there are typically tons of enemy fighters already airborne, ready and willing to defend it even if the attackers manage to flatten the base/town.
In a strategic arena, any target is better than a front-line base that is involved in a furball.

In the current set up, the only good strategic use of a bomber is to kill a CV or to kill hangers at a front line base.  Strat targets rebuild too quickly to have an impact on the game.  With the current numbers in the main, rear bases are nearly impossible to capture.  Come in high or low, with many or few, you will be met in force.  

How has the current set up impacted strat guys?
Strategic game play in AH is nearly dead.  Strat guys can join a mission, or get in a bomber and go pork an enemy furball-suppling base, or go join the nearest furball.
When I am in a strat mood, I often find myself staring at the map, unable to find anything interesting to do.

What would a move toward a more strategic set up mean to furballers?  That strat guys will be much more likely to leave furball bases (and fighter hangers) alone.  I.E. furballs are likely to last longer.      
It also means that sometimes furballers and everyone in a given country, may be without overall radar.  
Some claim that this makes it hard to find a fight.  I have furballed without the aid of radar.  It is neither difficult nor time consuming to find a good fight or furball without radar.  You can either ask where the furball/fight is, or you can check all the front line bases in your country and visually look from the tower.  Typically, a furball exist where one of your country's bases is closest to an enemy base. Once you find a furball, you are probably set for hours.  
The other consequence to furballers and everyone in a given country is that they cannot use the map and radar while they fight.  Many players, especially newbies, may feel "lost" or venerable without this aid.  Most players are able to learn how to fly and fight without it and can rely on traditional SA to enjoy the furball.

The real trade off for a move toward a more strategic set up for fuballers is:
Occasional loss of in-flight radar VS. furballs less likely to be interrupted by bombers or strat guys porking fields and hangers.

One way of looking at what AH has to offer is to compare it to a good steakhouse.
A good steakhouse that only offers good steak and potatoes can only be so successful.  While there may be a number of customers who are perfectly happy eating only steak and potatoes every time they visit, many more patrons may visit more often if the steakhouse would only offer chicken, fish, salad, vegetables, desert and perhaps even a mariachi band as well.  Variety in selection builds a customer base.
HTC obviously understands this concept.  They offer a wide variety of aircraft and load-outs as well as vehicles, boats, ships, different maps and a dynamic strategic element.  Many customers, however, feel that the strategic element of AH was lost when it was essentially dumbed-down.

It's ironic that the two symbolic themes of AH, chess and poker, are strategy games that could be rivaled (strategy-wise) with everything that we now have.
The things that I am asking for would not require months, weeks, or even days to implement (I think).  Some of it could even be implemented by CMs (and is in the CT).
Don't get me wrong, I love AH.  I'm not going anywhere.
When I first wrote the above post, I hadn't given the CT a fair chance (heck, I don't think I had ever even logged in).  Some of what I have asked for in this post is, or perhaps already was, implemented in the CT.  Perhaps more of the ideas expressed by myself and others in this post should first be tested in the CT.  The CT type seem more than willing to test new ideas and don't mind not being able to do the exact same thing that they did last week.
But right now I think that the AH main is only a sim, when it could be a sim and a game.  
We are playing checkers with chess pieces, and old maid with a poker deck.

eskimo

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by mrsid2


quote:
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#1. Abolish Enemy-Bar-Dar below 500 feet. Encourage sneak raids. Sneak raids would mean that players would have interesting options 99% of the time. 4 guys, with discipline, could capture an enemy base 100+ miles in enemy territory.


That's milkrunning. Not realistic by any means because there would be no warning whatsovever that the enemy is raiding an inland field. The milkrunners have already enough chances during the gangbang hours, when the defending side doesn't have enough players to protect all fields that are being attacked.

Have you ever participated on a low level (under 500') raid?
I have, probably hundreds of times.  In both fighters and bombers.

Over land, it seems typical that about 10% of fighters will crash while flying nap-of-earth.  Bombers don't seem to do as well, especially in hilly/mountainous terrain.
With any numbers, it is nearly impossible for everyone to remain low 100% of the time, especially hilly/mountainous terrain.  Its hard to not give away your location.
A two man team often can get there without giving away their whereabouts, but when they get there, they're only two men.

When you arrive at the target base without being detected, you must decide, pop-up and expose yourself before you begin your attack, or continue at 3 or 400 feet.  
If you remain low, you are faced with trying to de-ack your target while low.  The first problem with this is that the ack is shooting at you through buildings, and you can't even see it.  The next problem is that ack is much harder to hit from a low angle.  This is similar to de-acking with a panzer from ground level verses from on top of a hill.  The lower the angle, the more difficult the job.  If you manage to kill a few ack, you are typically forced to egress very close to the remaining ack.  500' AGL is does not offer a lot of room to juke in while trying to avoid AA fire.  (Most of my low raid deaths happen on the first pass egress.)
If you brought bombs, you risk dropping them too low where they won't detonate, or fragging yourself (you don't have much time to get away from a bomb that was dropped from 400').  Bomb hit % (while remaining low) is typically pretty lame.  Straffing buildings from low angles is a bit harder, and I have seen many folks fly into them.
100% under 500' raids are a squeak to pull-off.

Popping up near your target is a temporarily more survivable option, but it shows the enemy exactly where you are - knocking on their front door.  When you pop up in a heavy fighter after flying NOE, you might be able to zoom to 3K AGL and 200MPH.  Not a heck of a lot of E if you ask me.  When you get ready to start your attack, you can expect enemy fighters to start showing up.  If you managed to coordinate the arrival of your goon with your attack you stand a chance of capturing the field.  All that you have to do is flatten the town, perhaps de-ack the air-base and fight off the enemy who has been gaining alt and E while you've been burning yours on your jabo work.  
The big questions now are, how many of your team survived, how many enemy have upped, or are upping, and where's your goon.  Can you keep the enemy from killing your goon or troops?
If the enemy ups in numbers, or if even one skilled player gets off, your capture mission will probably fail.

Call it a milk-running if you wish.  
My experience has shown that most of the time, it's just a different way to die.

As far as not realistic, your kidding, right?
Ever heard of the Doolittle raid?
How about Yamamoto's fate?
NOE sneak raids were run by virtually all air forces in WWII because they created a possibility of surprising the enemy.

eskimo

[Hwkeye]

Let's try and keep AH simple guys.  This whole 'strat' thing is such a weary topic.  "Strat" lovers killed WB IMHO with their insistance on organization etc etc.  What we got there was the WWII arena and for most of use it sucked!  WB has NEVER been the same.  

People pay to play.  If they want to furball let them!  If you want organization or historical scenarios, go to the appropriate area.  Enough already.  Let HT build his dream and the rest of us get back to the business of enjoying his creation!

Hwkeye

[AKDejaVu]

Eskimo...

That's a bit overboard and you're talking large scenarios and formations.

What is to prevent a single practiced pilot from taking a base down undected and then capturing it?  Or one experienced jabo with one C47 coming along? With the system you propose.. absolutely nothing.

Anything, no matter how dificult, becomes simple with practice.  People are showing that with JABO skills on a regular basis. Please don't try to use the unskilled masses to try to hide the potential of the practiced few.

Low level, at some point, needs to show on map.  I'm all for no bar dar below 500 feet, just not over nor near an enemy base.

AKDejaVu

[mrsid2]

The point is that nobody should be able to attack a field without any warning when it happens on the field. It's like a situation where there is a town and a field completely abandoned and robots shooting back as ack.. Nobody to witness the attack.

That's not right.

You have to also remember that you don't need to deack fields anymore, just kill the 4 guns in the town and smash the buildings. This is quick and relatively easy. One suicide run with plenty of rockets in the general area of the town ack will smash it. Then the other jabo finishes off the town while the third finally catches them in goon and drops the troops.

All without ever giving away your position to the enemy..

Youre talking like Pearl Harbour was being bombed without any knowledge of the US army. They just woke up in the morning and 'darned, someone sunk all our ships! Looks like they captured a couple towns aswell..'

They may have come there as a surprise, but as sure as hell everyone knew what was happening the moment the first bomb was droped.

[eddiek]

Might sound far fetched, but the way around the milk running, IIRC, has already been proposed:
Leave dar off below 500', but the second you pop into sight over any enemy base, a message pops up in the buffer, in white so you can't possibly miss it:  FIELD "XX" under ATTACK!
Would all but eliminate milkrunning IMO, as there would be no chance of taking any base without a chance of it being defended.

[eskimo2]

AKdejavu, Mrsid and eddiek,
I would be happy with any of your ideas.

The point is,
If you can manage to get close to a base flying NOE, you should be able to at least get close without giving away your intentions.

eskimo

[lazs2]

sabre... i think you have the gist of it.  The relationship is symbiotic but... I don't agree with yur sports analodgy or... not entirely.   Sex dowesn't have score nor does plinking with handguns.   I can not think of any "sport" that goes on 24/7 and that you can join in for an hour or so any day or play constantly till you drop.

Any strat that destroys the ability for people to choose a plane or takeoff close to a fight or lose their ability to quickly find one (see what is going on) is not going to go over well with the majority of players who only come on for an hour or so to relax.

I say, closer more easily captured fields suit the purpose.   radar never completly down and fields never left without fighters till they are captured.   people "organizing" a raid will need fighter cover to vul.. er, "cap" the field.   Bet they won't have any trouble finding participants.   The "front" will move more quickly and have more meaning for people who don't live on line (the majority).   The generals will feel like they are "leading".   Everyone will be one big happy family.  there will be no more strife in the land..  castle and horsey head and even the dildo worshiping cult will all live in harmony.

You want people to eschew strat and complain then fix it so that the fields are far apart with most of em hanging on the vine, useless to fighters, and the country blind every time one attention starved fluff driver feels his 30 min milkrun should be "meaningful".
lazs
the "lazhole"

[beet1e]

In Warbirds, it was dead simple. Each field had a radar on the field. You could do your NOE run to get there, but then it was desirable to get the radar down as soon as possible. In this case, that field was blind. I believe each field had a radar which had a range of 20 miles, although that varied sometimes according to the whims of the strat realists. I absolutely agree with hwkeye's comments about that. The enemy might catch sight of you popping up in order to make a dive on the radar, but once the radar was dead, you couldn't be seen, unless within the radar range of a neighbouring field. There was never any of this bar-dar crap in WB.

As a European, playing at Euro friendly times, I run into the Asia-Pacific guys. It has to be remembered that many do not speak English, and therefore coordination can be difficult. (Remember that these guys cannot RTFM - has any thought been given to writing the AH tutorial in other languages - Japanese, for example?) For this reason, I don't think the strat should be TOO complicated, especially as there are few players on at these times.

But it beggars belief that here we are, discussing ways to appease the furballers! Furballing is one of those things that just happens, whatever strat model is in place. What really needs to be addressed is ways to allow strategic missions to succeed, without recourse to a gangbang generator   er, mission editor.

[popeye]

Enable KillShooter in the Dueling Arena, and furballers will have a haven, no matter what happens in the MA.