Author Topic: The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2. (Read 1999 times)

streakeagle · « **Reply #75 on:** March 01, 2002, 02:40:56 PM »

Willy Messerschmitt was as Nazi as they come (despite post war efforts to deny that fact), and his design is by my definition above Nazi, just as Japanese built F-4s are American. He knew what he was doing and proudly served the Third Reich.

You are arguing semantics: the meaning is the same.

The German government, led by Hitler, known as the Third Reich, which used the swastika as its emblem and designed, built, and flew the Bf109... is unmistakenly recognized by simply saying Nazis.

In this context, the words "Nazi" and "German" are interchangeable at least from the time WWII started to the time it ended.

German troops... Nazi troops.
German planes... Nazi planes.

I did not create this definition. It is an adjective describing nationality, possession, and/or origin that is entirely appropriate and commonly used in bonafide historical documents.

AKcurly · « **Reply #76 on:** March 01, 2002, 02:41:33 PM »

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Originally posted by streakeagle

If I am a poor farmer in Colombia struggling to feed my family, I will do anything I can to provide for them. Perhaps the only choice I have is to support the local drug lords by harvesting crops for them (or whatever else it is that I can do for them and feed my family). But the drug lords are still criminals. Anyone who helps them becomes criminals.

Obviously, you've never been a poor, Columbian farmer. More is the pity. Experience gives a fellow a keener insight into matters like this.

And

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But you will never convince me it was the "right" thing to do. Of course with Germany gone, it was in the interest of the West to prevent Russia from expanding any more than necessary. It makes perfect sense that the German planes would be replaced by aircraft from Western countries.

Let me get this right.

Your country is being invaded; your family members are being killed; the industrial base of your country is being destroyed. Indeed, your very identify is being erased in a systematic manner. And you're telling us that you would look down your long, arrogant nose and say "no, I won't use this weapon - it's tainted." Is that right?

Either you've consumed a full ration of rabbit pellets or you are out of touch with reality.

curly

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #77 on:** March 01, 2002, 02:52:14 PM »

Okay, a Japanese built F-4 is American... I don't deny that. It's an American design.

But why is it you can apply double standards? Because it's in your best interest? You were raised this way? You were taught that Germany was not Germany but only Nazis from '35-'45?

So if you call a Japanese built F-4 American, why do you not call a Bf-109 a German plane as opposed to a Nazi plane?

You don't call a Japanese built F-4 an American political party name? You don't call Russian built aircraft Communist aircraft? You don't call Israeli jets their political party? (I have no idea what it would be)

All I see is double standards in this thread, people are Nazis or white supremecists. A machine is a machine. BMW built engines for the Nazi Wehrmacht... why are they no longer a nazi company?
-SW

ironas · « **Reply #78 on:** March 01, 2002, 02:52:50 PM »

Hello there!

A german speking here...

I followed the first half of this Threat with great interest. Just to see what the half of the World thinks about us germans.

(And because i´m not that good in english Grammar, i´m going to write in lower Case from now on. Hope that you don´t mind...)

First of all, i´m at the age of 33 now. So i dont know for sure what was going on in WW2! Keep that in mind, please. But i read and heard (from survivors) that this times were really bad. It might sound as a kind of "Excuse me, please!" but i am only trying to get the things right.

FACTS:
- Our cuontry startet the war!
- We had some sick minds as a leadership.
- Many of our countryfolk believed in what our leadership said.

But:

- Not every german was a nazi!
In 1935 to 1938 (before WW2) the nazis were a threat to everyone. If your not with them, you were against them! The simple german citizen was afraid of this.
- When the dogs of war were unleashed, the nazis got all the power to spread their propaganda. At least two thirds of germany believed, that there was the "final victory" in sight. One third, at least, didn´t believed that. But if you dont believe it (at these times) you were dead.
- The german army "Heerestruppen" had a rather great percentage of "real" nazis amongst them. But not all of them were nazis.
- The german navy "Kriegsmarine" had them, too.
- The german airforce "Luftwaffe" probably had them also, but Toliver, Constable and Brown wrote in their books that german fighterpilots were "some" kind of good guys. And if i can believe these authors then they interviewed allied pilots some 20 years (or more) ago.

Why i try to hold my ground here? Simple thing...

- even today i have to hear something like: "Hey ironas, youre a nazi!". Or such crap! Why dont people realize, that it happened for about 60 years ago? Am i a nazi only because i´m german? Or every other german? THIS PISSES ME OFF!
- Germany has a rather big problem with Neo-Nazi´s! They were celebrating the birthday of some great nazi-guy these days. And guess what? The beat up some greeks in our country just to have fun! REALIZE IT! One of them greeks was beaten up that bad that he probably was dying! But some turkish guys interfered and drove them nazis away, saving this greek. SALUTE! to them!

I´ll tell you something: were do you live? America? Britain? Italy? or somewhere else? no matter.
I understand, that some of you think, that all germans who participated in the war, active or passive, were some kind of nazi´s. O.K.
But thats not right. And this nazi-threat is alive. Skinheads, not all of them but many, are a great problem. We try to hold them at bay.

So, as a final word: Dont thing that germans in WW2 were all that kind of nazi´s as you think of! A nazi is a german who does evil. A german is a german who lives and acts as a normal human!

Ironas out!

streakeagle · « **Reply #79 on:** March 01, 2002, 03:07:20 PM »

This keeps getting further away from the original swastika, but what the hell... the thread is already here and nobody has to click on it if they don't like it...

It still isn't right to make a deal with the devil.

Humans tend to put survival above principles. Though not entirely. If they were so concerned about dying, they could surrender rather than fight.

Some principles are worth dying for, like nationalism right? So what is the point of fighting to save your country from one invader, if the means to win must be provided by another equally aggressive invader?

Suppose Germany had defeated the USSR and her allies, where would Finland have been getting its military supplies when Germany inevitably invaded Finland?

The past cannot be changed, and arguing doesn't alter what took place. Europe looked the other way while Hitler set the stage for another world war. The US helped the greatest enemy it has ever faced: the USSR. Finland was almost completely isolated from the so-called "world war" and as such saw no problem with co-operating with one of the most evil governments ever to exist.

Necessity and morality are two different issues. People tend to do what they feel they need to regardless of morals or laws. That need and the actions taken to fulfill it does not change the morals or laws.

ironas · « **Reply #80 on:** March 01, 2002, 03:11:35 PM »

@StreakeEagle

"In this context, the words "Nazi" and "German" are interchangeable at least from the time WWII started to the time it ended."

this is not right.
They were alot of germans, who were sick of the war in 1943 to 1944 and after. They didnt belived in "the final victory" so they werent nazis. Sure, a part of them were nazis. Maybe a great part. But do you really think a sane citizen can be fooled for 6 years? And dont try to tell me, that ALL german citizens were not sane for more than 6 years...

Please try to realize that "Nazi´s" and "Germans" are two very different groups.

Nazi´s are: We are the top of the human race and we rule all others! We are the Kings! (And such crap...)
Germans are: We are Germans. Not French, not British, not Americans, just Germans. Thats all!

Nazi´s and Germans are NOT interchangeable! Not in the present and not in the past! There were a lot of German´s who got alot of trouble because they DON´T obeyed to the "Fuehrer´s" (Hitlers) power.

streakeagle · « **Reply #81 on:** March 01, 2002, 03:38:09 PM »

AK,

There is no double standard beyond that built into our language. Clearly, I am following American conventions used in American history books.

Americans call their weapons the "arsenal of democracy", but we tend to identify both our politics and our nation with our continent.

Canadians make cars too, but almost no one would misunderstand what I meant if I said "American cars". They would assume General Motors/Chrysler/Ford, though I guess Chrysler could be considered German now.

T-72 tanks and MiG-21s are commonly referred to as Communist, Soviet, or Russian equipment. Depending on the context, all could be synonomous.

Saying German planes is too general for what I am referring to: it could mean any plane made by Germany in since Germany started making planes to the present.

Saying Nazi planes is much more specific. Few would think of aircraft outside of those produced while the Nazi regime controlled Germany. The Bf109 is simultaneously associated with Germany in general and Nazis specifically.

It is much shorter and equally correct to say "Nazi planes" than say "planes of the evil government that existed in Germany under Hitler".

Again, I did not create the convention... but expressing ideas with the fewest words possible makes sense.

Ironas,

To be fair to you, I have been using "Nazi" in its WW2 context, but of course it can also be used in a context that refers to anyone who believes in or practices those principals, not just Germans. But of course, when anyone in the US (or the world?) thinks of Nazis they think of Germans, just like Commies are Russian and Chinese. The US has many well-known organizations that support Nazi values including neo-nazis. It is amazing that in this day and age, well educated people can have such beliefs. It is sad that the actions of a fraction of the German population over such a short timeframe have tainted the reputation of all Germans. I would no more call a German "Nazi" than I would an African "cupcake" except perhaps in conversational humor among close friends.

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So, as a final word: Dont thing that germans in WW2 were all that kind of nazi´s as you think of! A nazi is a german who does evil. A german is a german who lives and acts as a normal human!

Charge · « **Reply #82 on:** March 01, 2002, 09:03:12 PM »

Have U ever been to Europe streak? Planning to visit us? I would be glad to see the reactions of our veterans when you say they were flying 'NAZI' planes.

It would be interesting to see somebody call german vehicles as NAZI vehicles for example in WW2Online. The forum would probably rip to pieces...LOL

Of course it is linquistically very economic to use such words as you have explained. But I remind you: You are not writing to Americans only. There is a lot of European players who have a totally different way of using those dangerous words. In this kind of a international forum I would describe it as very impolite behaviour.

I don't think you imagine that ie. German players find it very amusing when you use the word NAZI at all. I really don't think they need you to remind them what happened. Or is it your concious intention to insult them and us Finns by referring to us by calling us indirectly nazis, or the Russians by calling them COMMIES? I hope you don't mind me calling you a slaver, do you? Maybe your ancestors had a part of that dark era of your history, maybe not. But what do I care? It's economical to call YOU a slaver.

Hey streak, I'm not serious here. But I hope you get my point.

I find it hard to believe that I actually allowed myself to be pulled into this conversation...

If this game turns out to be a way to people trying to express their national superiority over others, I surely will just vanish from this board and the game altogether. I'm here to have fun and enough people already think I'm insane yanking the stick with sweat pouring from my head and empty beer cans clanking on the floor cursing ponies and spits.

I have been here only a short time and I really thought that I found a place where we are all friends and enjoy this great game without any national boundaries. Please let it be so.

Yours,

-Charge+

mipoikel · « **Reply #83 on:** March 02, 2002, 04:02:30 AM »

Streakeagle!

Finland didnt want the war in 1939 -->

We fought in winterwar and it was a miracle that we survived. In that time usa and england were in our side and promised some help. It never came. So winterwar we had to fiht alone and without help.

In 1941 Soviet attacked again. Only possible country where we could get some support and help was germany.

If we wouldnt use that help, we would have been in same situation with baltic countries. Soviets would have beat us without german weapons and other help.

You guys in USA seem not to realize that Finland was fighting for life and exist. We were in corner and we had to fight or disappear. We are very lucky to be free and have one of the best or even the very best country to live in the world now. And all honour belongs to our veterans.

Keeping us or our fight as a nazifriendly fight is an insult what I will not tolerate. Streak I understand that you think that we should have let russians to occupie our country? Would that have been the right thing?

streakeagle · « **Reply #84 on:** March 02, 2002, 08:36:55 PM »

With a few bad rolls of the dice... the Germans would have eventually overrun Finland.

As I have said, I don't fault Finland for doing what it did. After all, the US and Britain chose to ally with the USSR. But right and wrong are different from necessary and unnecessary.

Ever heard the phrase "dead right", or "better dead than red". Some people put their integrity above their survival. Some people sell out their integrity even when their survival isn't on the line.

Of course every man ultimately has his price (where he will sell out his values), just for some, it's pretty low.

Perhaps if Finland had resisted without German help, the Russians would have had more resources available to fight Germany? France represents well what could happen if you give in to an invading force. Perhaps Finland would have been in a similar situation: under the control of the Soviet Union, but still fighting them the whole time. Certainly, if Finland could have found a way to survive without German support, or lost valiantly trying to do so, stupid Americans like myself might better appreciate and know more about what went on there in that time. As it is, the only aspects I am clear on are the aircraft variants used and the kill ratios. Who would think the Brewster Buffalo could get such a good kill ratio based on its brief disastrous Pacific performance? Any situation in which small numbers of 2nd rate planes hold off large numbers of 1st rate planes is always fascinating. Getting a handful of first rate planes from Germany is almost cheating... I am sure the Russians were not happy about it

If it counts for anything, I apolgize wholeheartedly for the failure of Britain and the United States to help Finland out, leaving you only a few unpleasant choices. But it was like voting in an American Presidential election, no matter who you vote for, you still lose.